Ahhhhhh! Internal Combustion forever!

Quote from Neosolidus

I had a P85D model S and all I can say is that is probably the only car I have ever regretted buying.

I live in MN where it is freaking cold most of the year which reduced range by half if not more(after all heating elements are on), then there was the struggle of going to charging stations to find them all full( this was back in 2014 before there were apps telling you the status of the stations).

But what really pissed me off was that 3 times I went to my car and found it in "limp"mode after an over the air update was applied and failed updating(without my knowledge I might add), the fact that they can screw with your car without even saying a thing and things can go wrong which then you are forced to have the vehicle towed to a dealer which then says they are backed up so they can't touch the vehicle for several days and they have no loaner available, sorry but for something that cost me 100k the service I got was mediocre at best.

One of the reasons I avoided Tesla was how much control they have over your vehicle. Going in to Limp mode for no reason would piss me off.

I'm really surprised that you lose that much range in the winter...Tesla's are known for their battery management. I know in my leaf I only lose about 8-10% in the winter.

There's a lot of misinformation online where Electric vehicles seem to be treated as some bad green initiative and data gets spun to support that.

The majority of our powerplants do not use coal. 39% of our power was coal generated in 2014 and it has dropped each year to about 25% in 2019. 20% is Nuke, 36% natural gas and about 18% renewables. EV batteries are not like golf carts, they are VERY durable and very well protected as to cooling and charge cycles. I saw an article from a GM VP in 2017 where he stated that there were over 100,000 Volts on the road and there had not been one legitimate pack failure.

Charging real estate---almost none needed. Picture current parking spots at convenience stores/gas stations with a charging station in front of each. Nothing more than a pole, a J1772 universal plug/cord and a credit card reader.

I've owned a 2nd gen Volt for 3 years and I had the most highly modified (my own designs) Gem car for a decade prior to that ( 4 seat, street legal and would go 60 mph). Electrics are very viable but we need to get away from the divisive political aspect as they are a positive for all inasmuch as they reduce foreign oil dependence regardless of which party in office. The growth has been slow, which is good as the concerns raised, such as stations, waiting, power plant shortfalls, etc would be an issue if suddenly 20% of the cars on the road were electric instead of 2%. We need fossil fuel cars to remain around for a long time for things to be copacetic.

Quote from Br4hm4

One of the reasons I avoided Tesla was how much control they have over your vehicle. Going in to Limp mode for no reason would piss me off.

I'm really surprised that you lose that much range in the winter...Tesla's are known for their battery management. I know in my leaf I only lose about 8-10% in the winter.

Once you activate the seat heater/wheel and crank up the heat in the car your range goes to the floor but when the temp is -20F with a windchill of -40F you really can't skimp on heat.

Again I am sure it has changed a lot now a days but back when I had mine(delivered Feb/march 2015) I just didn't feel I got my money's worth, again no other company force an Over The Air "tune" on your car without your consent that can potentially break the car.

I mean just think of it, you get home and everything is fine with your car and in the morning you get up and have just the right amount of time to make it to board meeting and find that your car doesn't work because of an OTA update that you knew nothing about and did not agree to(they hid the lawyer lingo in the ToS which NOONE reads), that happened to me 3 times in just under 2 years of ownership.

Quote from Doc&Ruby

Can you get me a link to that article? I'd like to look it over. I'm still skeptical - the amount of waste produced manufacturing an EV is far greater than an IC vehicle, and inherently less recyclable. I'd be interested to see if the article was just talking about the energy used driving the EV, or takes the entire cradle to grave process into account.

Cradle to grave, good point. Other things to take into account would be the end of life option. Specifically battery disposal and effects on the environment at the end of life. Associated costs? All good things. I did hear that the automotive batteries upon their useful limit within an auto be reused as capacitors to store the energy from home solar panels. Still at some point they will need disposal.

Quote from Frankie55

Cradle to grave, good point. Other things to take into account would be the end of life option. Specifically battery disposal and effects on the environment at the end of life. Associated costs? All good things. I did hear that the automotive batteries upon their useful limit within an auto be reused as capacitors to store the energy from home solar panels. Still at some point they will need disposal.

That is why I said look at the total cost, I mean everything. Until it is no longer a product for anything.

Quote from Frankie55

Cradle to grave, good point. Other things to take into account would be the end of life option. Specifically battery disposal and effects on the environment at the end of life. Associated costs? All good things. I did hear that the automotive batteries upon their useful limit within an auto be reused as capacitors to store the energy from home solar panels. Still at some point they will need disposal.

I remember some 15+ yrs ago there was a story about the worst vehicles for the planet when you consider the entire cradle to grave.

Of course, #1 was the Hummer H2. Just too over the top.

But #2 (he, heh!) was . . . . . . . . . . . . Toyota Prius!

Yep, those batteries and disposal (even recycling) was worse for the environment than using all those dead dinosaurs. The story considered all the entire life chain energy usage, recyclablity, and numbers of them on the road. I tried to google a refresh of that article but couldn't find the exact one. (Many other stories just consider a single vehicle to another without regards for how many are actually on the road.)

Oh, and the BEST car (at the time): Scion Xb (also made by Toyota).

I just want the real facts without the opinion and the BS.

Quote from FunCycle

I just want the real facts without the opinion and the BS.

its not necessarily an easy thing to nail down

If you are concerned about being as easy on the environment as you can which vehicle is the best choice and cleanest for you may not be the same as for someone else

If one person is going to buy an EV and only charge it from home using solar electric the carbon footprint is going to be very different from the same car if it is charged from the grid and that grid is supplied 100% by coal generated electricity

you can probably get "real facts" that are based on averages, but those could be very misleading when compared to the real application

I suspect that these variables or much smaller for gasoline vehicles as the source of the fuel is pretty consistent as compared to variations in sources of electricity

Quote from Edward Neal

its not necessarily an easy thing to nail down

If you are concerned about being as easy on the environment as you can which vehicle is the best choice and cleanest for you may not be the same as for someone else

If one person is going to buy an EV and only charge it from home using solar electric the carbon footprint is going to be very different from the same car if it is charged from the grid and that grid is supplied 100% by coal generated electricity

you can probably get "real facts" that are based on averages, but those could be very misleading when compared to the real application

I suspect that these variables or much smaller for gasoline vehicles as the source of the fuel is pretty consistent as compared to variations in sources of electricity

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Let us just assume 100,000 miles on each to make things equal with out the BS and both are ready for the junk pile. No if's, when and but's

If a frog had wings, he would not bust his ass every time he jumps

Quote from FunCycle

I just want the real facts without the opinion and the BS.

would it really make a difference?

for me it would not - - I am not going to pick one car over the other based on which is best for the environment - - that question is very very low on my list of things that make me choose a vehicle - - in fact it has never even been something I have thought about when out buying a car

so seriously - with the current state of EV's and EV charging being where they are - are you ready to make an EV your primary vehicle?

like you I would like to know the "real facts" but even if they were available I doubt they would be a primary driver of my next purchase or if being cleaner would make me accept an EV that otherwise was not up to what I wanted

Here in the desert our local bus company has a couple of fuel cell hydrogen powered buses and there is a hydrogen fuel station not far from my house

Sent from my iPhone using Polaris Slingshot Info

They were using Hydrogen all the way back in 1937

Today on the news NJ is already concerned about the loss of income due to EV's not purchasing gas. Losing the income from the gas tax. They did not state how to replace the lost income. My imagination is running wild. So many opportunities!

I read an article about the declining use of manual transmissions here in the US that stated that 2018 marked the first time annual sales of manual transmission vehicles (1.6% of total vehicle sales*) fell below the level of EV sales (1.8%*). It also stated that outside the US, manual trans are still in about 40% of vehicles.

* - IIRC.

And now we have the Tesla CyberTruck!

I obviously won't be buying this one. But give it 4-5 years to refine/improve and who knows?

Quote from chavey2

And now we have the Tesla CyberTruck!

I obviously won't be buying this one. But give it 4-5 years to refine/improve and who knows?

Even then, they'd still be way too expensive for my budget! New or Used

Quote from chavey2

And now we have the Tesla CyberTruck!

I obviously won't be buying this one. But give it 4-5 years to refine/improve and who knows?

Impressive specs but c'mon. That thing is HIDEOUS!