Not Going To Riding For A While

    Last year, I took my SS to the track and twice, coming out of a corner with both TC and SC on, my SS spun a good 720. I never fishtailed and simply spun to a stop. In this incident, I was simply merging onto the freeway in a straight path. From the point of entering the freeway to the point of going off the side of the freeway was .3 miles. The incident itself occurred within .15 miles. After fishtailing, the SS finally straighten up and something prevented me from steering away from the tree.

    Quote from Neosolidus

    good god............ :00008862:


    The mechanic who last worked on my SS (great guy, well recommended) called Polaris on my suggestion to plug into the SS to see if it threw any codes. My background simply tells me "process of elimination" and rule everything out to narrow down the problem. Polaris advised against it unless the insurance company required it, which leaves me a bit suspicious. Liability? If it was something not related to the SS, great. But based on evidence at the scene, lack of visible substance on the road, clear, warm weather and normal acceleration, simply doing a check on the SS is a start. IF something were wrong, wouldn't you all like to know about a potential safety issue or lack thereof? Didn't the SS that caught fire warrant a recall on the fuel line?


    Quote from Gadgeteer

    No offense to @aznative75 but odds favor operator error as the primary contributor to the accident, if not actual cause.
    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


    Based on your expert opinion from hundreds of miles away? I'm simply trying to eliminate ANY mechanical problems since that's probably the easiest thing to determine since it's objective.



    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Quote from aznative75

    Based on your expert opinion from hundreds of miles away? I'm simply trying to eliminate ANY mechanical problems since that's probably the easiest thing to determine since it's objective.


    Um, no... not based on my expert opinion... but nice that you think I'm an expert! (See? I can be sarcastic too. :D )


    No, based on real statistical odds which, I (mistakenly) assumed are common knowledge. To remedy that mistake, I offer the following excerpt from an article posted by The Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School (Human error as a cause of vehicle crashes | Center for Internet and Society)


    • (1) The most thorough analysis of crash causation, the Tri-Level Study of the Causes of Traffic Accidents published in 1979, found that "human errors and deficiencies" were a definite or probable cause in 90-93% of the incidents examined. The executive summary is here (see vii), and the two-part final report is here and here. The study continues to be cited, and the Venn diagram on this page provides a useful summary.
    • (2) A UK study published in 1980 (summarized here at 88-89) likewise identifies driver error, pedestrian error, or impairment as the "main contributory factor[]" in 95% of the crashes examined.
    • (3) Another US study published in 2001 (available here) found that “a driver behavioral error caused or contributed to” 99% of the crashes investigated.
    • (4) An annual UK crash report (available here with updated data here in table RAS50002) identifies 78 potential contributing factors, most of which suggest human error. However, multiple factors were recorded for some crashes, and none were recorded for others.
    • (5) NHTSA’s 2008 National Motor Vehicle Crash Causation Survey is probably the primary source for the common assertion by NHTSA officials that “[h]uman error is the critical reason for 93% of crashes” (at least if “human error” and “driver error” are conflated). The 93% figure is absent from the report itself (probably intentionally) but calculable from the totals given on page 24.


    So, as I said, THE ODDS favor driver error. I was not criticizing you or your driving ability and I was not offering an opinion, expert or otherwise. Since we have nothing to go on other than speculation, I was only stating that the odds favored driver error, not mechanical failure. Perhaps something did fail. Perhaps you couldn't turn away from the tree because the wheel linkage had already started to fall apart and the tree just finished the job. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... All speculation. However, as you stated from the beginning...

    Quote from aznative75

    Tried to get it under control but my main concern was to avoid rolling and not hitting other vehicles. Ended up going off the highway and into a tree. Luckily, I did not hit any other vehicles and no one hit me as I swerved across traffic.

    ...so we have to assume you had some degree of control and the steering was working before you went off the road. Again, that is just speculation. You seem pretty convinced that you did nothing wrong when, if you really think about it, you probably did. Whatever happened to initiate the wheel slip is not the cause of the accident. The failure of the traction control, assuming it did fail, or the failure of any other safety system, is not the cause of the accident either. These systems only assist the driver's recovery efforts; they are not responsible for making recovery efforts for the driver.


    So, like the statistical majority of all the other accidents that have been reported in the past 30+ years, both here and in other countries, the most likely cause of the accident (failure to avoid hitting the tree) was driver error. There's no shame in it. Obviously, you're not the only one. In fact, I've been in my fair share of accidents and I know there were things I failed to do to prevent it from happening because I wasn't expecting something to go wrong. That's how accidents happen. Also, it doesn't matter if something mechanical failed.


    Years ago, I actually saw a guy in a 2-seat convertible roadster (1970's MG, I think) lose his rear wheel while driving in the third lane of a four lane highway. The lugs nuts scattered across the road and the entire wheel shot up a good 15ft. and went bouncing down the road to parts unknown. Somehow, the guy knew he was in trouble but still had the presence of mind to hit his turn signal and steer gently across 3 lanes of highway traffic and bring the car to a stop on the shoulder. We pulled up behind him as he jumped out and ran around to see what had happened, saw the wheel was not there, then broke down and cried his eyes out. He maintained control and didn't hit anyone or anything. Coincidentally, neither did the flying wheel. He didn't have any nanny systems helping him either. Maybe God was with him, but the rag top was down and I didn't see anyone else in the car.


    In contrast, my own brother, a veteran motorcycle rider and certified motorcycle safety instructor for 19 yrs., fatally crashed his motorcycle and after assessing the damage to the bike I found there was no mechanical failure of any kind. Except for a bunch of dents, scrapes, bent handle bars and rims, everything was in working order. I searched the road for something he might have slipped on and, like you, I found nothing. It was warm, no rain, no traffic that we know of (a passing driver noticed the bike's headlight shining out of the woods onto the road and stopped to check it out), no solid evidence of anything that would cause him to lose control. It could have been a deer in the road because that area was know for such, but we'll never know for sure. The only thing I do know for sure is that something went wrong and he couldn't recover it. He laid the bike down, it slid off the road, and before he could get clear of the bike, the tires hit a root which launched both him and the his Harley Road King into the air and into the trees. I put the chain of event together based on the skid marks and the path of destruction the bike made from the time it left the pavement until it tumbled up against a tree, standing on its tires with its headlight casting its beam out toward the road. If not for the root, he might have had a chance but he had already made too many errors and his luck ran out.


    Driver (rider, in this case) error was the cause of the actual accident. Was the guy that lost his car wheel lucky? You bet your bippy he was. But he managed to get the car safely off the road because he did not make a single error. Everything he did was deliberate, smooth, and perfectly executed. Was it skill or instinct? Don't know and it doesn't matter. He was the one driving so he gets all the credit. My brother was the one driving the bike so he gets all the credit too. It doesn't matter if the Slingshot's Traction Control failed, what matters is that as the driver, you failed to control the vehicle before it hit that tree. That was the accident, accidents happen, and they happen to newbies as well as skilled drivers (ever watch a NASCAR race?).


    So, although you didn't ask for it, THAT is my informed (not expert) opinion on the matter. Unless there is some evidence that there was no possible way of avoiding that tree and that there was absolutely nothing you could have done differently to change the final outcome, driver error played a large part in the whole thing, whether you realize it or not. If it makes you feel any better, the odds are that at least 90% (probably more) of the other drivers that wrecked their Slingshots screwed up too, including me. Welcome to the club. :thumbup:


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Sorry, folks. I think that post happened due to a Stability Control malfunction. :)


    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Again there a lots of contributing factors possible.


    At Eureka Springs I had the back end come a little loose because my speed sensor was malfunctioning.


    @MACAWS and @KayTwo I know I already said this. Just doing my part to keep the thread alive. :00000024:

    Proud Member of SOG!!!!!!!

    2015 SL (Yellow) Traded becuase it kept melting

    2018 SLR LE with DDM SuperCharger!!! I guess the gray ones are faster...

    If I understand the traction control correctly it works by applying the brakes and/or shutting down the engine. If either of the front brakes had been applied it would have jerked the steering wheel. If the rear brake had been applied it simply would have slowed down, as with the shutting down of the engine, it simply would have slowed down. From the evidence given here traction control cannot be the blame.


    On another hand, on hard acceleration I have had the back end break loose and start to wander,even on dry pavement, (my fault!), During acceleration I have hit a patch of gravel or an oil spill, same result, maybe my fault maybe shit happens. Anyways, all of these sound much more like what happened here?


    Bill

    I've been following this thread and while I have no input on what caused the fishtail during the merge, I do wonder about the role of ABS brakes in the final results - hitting the tree. I grew up driving sixties muscle cars which are heavy, overpowered and, by today's standards, have poor suspension systems. When I got sideways (almost daily :D ), the technique employed to avoid obstacles was to steer it in the appropriate direction, jam the brakes and throw it into a slide. When it was time to change directions, you get off the brakes, throw it the other way, dump the clutch, and give it the power, creating a power slide the other way. You would repeat the slide/power slide however many times necessary to avoid all obstacles and come to a stop. The first time I did a panic stop with ABS brakes, I couldn't even get my nose to slide right, an instinctive maneuver to create more space between you and the obstacle in front of you. I felt like I was not in control of my vehicle - because I wasn't. So regardless of what created the slide, it's possible that if you were on the brakes once you left the road @aznative75, the ABS system contributed to the tree strike.

    Remember folks - this isn't a rehearsal, this is The Show!8)

    There is A LOT of "expert opinions" that are being posted based on very different vehicles and circumstances. To understand this issue better, you need to know the complete list of issues that have been reported on the Slingshot. Many have not followed or have owned a Slingshot long enough to know many of these. You also need to have experience driving one of these vehicles at the outer limit where you have felt first hand, on how both traction control and stability control work.


    The facts are...

    • road conditions we good
    • the machine acted very irregularly for some reason unknown
    • the machine crashed, to likely a state beyond repair

    Driver error is always going to be part of the problem, but shouldn't be a blanket judgement. "You hit a deer?! Well, that is driver error on going 2 mph over the speed limit and driving at dusk."


    I have been at track days with @aznative75 and his machine has always acted "differently" than mine. In corners where my machine's stability control would correct over-driving, his has spun out. And, this is with me running no TC and him running both traction control and stability control. See video below...



    I think we should lay this to rest, as we are way to deep in the weeds guessing on what went wrong. I doubt anything will be discovered wrong with @aznative75 Slingshot, as it is wrecked bad and it wont be worth the time and energy to go through every component/sensor that is still in decent shape.


    Be happy that he is safe and that in almost all cases Slingshots are very fun and safe machine!

    Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D

    Edited once, last by TravAZ ().

    Just my very strong opinion ....


    Pay the money to hook it up to the computer to see what codes pop up....it could be well worth the money....for several reasons....one being insurance company and two being Polaris to possibly determine fault from a mechanical failure...which concerns everyone of us.


    The whole thing just doesn't add up on a dry clear day. I'm not really buying the driver error part.....if a mechanical failure occurred at the very beginning of the spin ....then yes the driver could have aided in the final outcome because he didn't know how to react in a one rear wheel vehicle with traction control engaged.....which brings us back to the very beginning of this thread....


    That's why I'm so interested in the entire thread...


    What should you do in a spin...a question we should all be concerned about...

    Many reasons..


    Are the computers running the exact same updates.


    Are all the sensors functioning at 100% even a sensor running at 99% (still considered ok) could screw up computer input...


    The fuel delivery could be slightly different. A Weak coil pack on 1 of the cylinders. A Weak fuel pump. This list could grow into hundreds of slight differences..

    Quote from rnj12

    No kidding I was just finishing up the last line and POW @Gadgeteer had already hit send.



    Sent from my iPad using Polaris Slingshot Forum mobile app

    Sorry to steal it, but you gotta admit that if I picked up on it, it was a little too easy. I just wish I had picked up on it before I submitted.


    Don't worry, I am sure it won't be too long before I serve up another. When I do, I'll be sure to let you guys have the first swing. :thumbup:


    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Quote from Boomer

    Just a small comment,,,,,, SOUNDS LIKE CATASTROPHIC!!!!
    Just sayin!


    I know mine was! :D


    C'mon @KayTwo and @rnj12... you gotta at least try to swing at the ball! ;)


    Sent from my Nexus 6P


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Edited once, last by Gadgeteer ().

    Downloading any codes would have little value in determining causation unless they are time stamped.
    Downloading info from vehicles is useful if the info can be linked to the event.
    With ACM (airbag control modules) the impact creates a marker, no ACM in a slingshot.

    I think his codes were cleared and there were 0 stored before the accident. So, in this case the would have value as any code listed would have happened during/after the wreck.


    I personally don't think there will be any codes worth noting, but who knows... It is easy to pull the ECM and drop it into a machine at the dealership to plug in and check codes. I am sure this will be done, depending if insurance allows you to take items off of the vehicle.

    Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D

    Since I never said it before now, I too am glad that @aznative75 is well and no other vehicles or people came to any harm. I know all too well how it feels to have a tree that lives a boring and sedentary life take out its frustrations on your Slingshot. I could swear at the time of my accident, my tree bore a sadistic grin of satisfaction and wielded a menacing looking ice ray-gun, but no sign of weapon or sentience could be found after the crash. ;)


    Also, despite my uh,... monologue(?)... related to statistics and odds, I agree there may be some value to checking the logs for possible error codes. I don't think a full forensic dissection of the vehicle would be of much help, but if an electronic system threw an error, that should show up. @Red makes a valid point about the lack of time stamps leaving too much room for speculation on causality coinciding with the time of the accident. At the same time, I agree with @aznative75 and @Bigdog that there may be some solace in knowing if there was something tangible that might have been a contributing factor. It probably won't be the proverbial "smoking gun", but it may be helpful in some other way, even if only to provide a sense of validation. That alone may be worth the expense to have it checked and I see no reason or need to involve the insurance and I doubt they would intervene anyway. However, if the factory intervened, that would be another story. On that, I'm sure we can all agree.


    Having gone through the post-accident process myself, I can offer a piece of advice/insight. If you are going to have the dealer try to pull codes from the vehicle, call them on the phone right now, tell them to do it immediately (or as soon as humanly possible) and have them bill you directly, just like they would if they were changing your oil. Why the urgency? Because you still own the vehicle and you call the shots. Not the factory and not the insurance company. I cannot stress this enough. You had it towed, to the location of your choice, and you are responsible for the bills that the insurance company doesn't pay on your behalf. When you settle with the insurance company, they are literally buying your busted vehicle from you and paying you the value written on the check. If you accept, you have sold your ownership and any rights or interests attached to it. Until then, if anyone says they are not allowed to pull the codes or share certain information about the vehicle with you, they need to be reminded that it is your vehicle and the bills are in your name. Neither the insurance company nor the factory has the authority to override your request as long as you are the registered owner. Act now, while you still can and before any "evidence" might get lost. I don't know if a dead/disconnected battery would reset the code logs, but why take the chance? Get what info you can, while you can.


    Sick'em Kujo! 8o


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams