Corona Virus

Quote from Ghost

THE CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG... THE CDC, THE WHO, AND ALL THE SO-CALLED EXPERTS LIED TO YOU!!! HERE'S THE LIST: @ 20/20

⚠️ EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY NEEDS TO READ THIS AND ABSORB IT... THOSE STILL ASLEEP, YOU BETTER WAKE UP BECAUSE THIS SHAM/DRESS REHEARSAL WILL CERTAINLY BE THE LAST CHANCE; THOSE CHOOSING TO REMAIN IN DENIAL, GIVING THE FINGER TO REALITY, YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN ...

FEEL “FREE” TO FACT CHECK EACH OF THESE, PLEASE!

🔺"CDC admitted they screwed up COVID19 infection

counts and intentionally misled the public and have apologized, clarifying that the amount of people truly infected is much lower than what was originally reported -- an error so egregious it made the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute say “how could the CDC make this mistake? This is a mess."

🔺The American Coronavirus Task Force also admitted to fudging the National COVID19 death count when Dr. Birx said the deaths are people who died “with” COVID19 not “from” COVID19, thus making the real death count much lower than what is currently being reported.

🔺Dr. Anthony Fauci admitted masks won’t help against the virus and mask manufacturers are now including warnings that their products do not deter COVID19.

🔺Fauci also said that continuing to close the country could cause irreparable damage.

🔺CDC backtracked their initial claim that led governors to shutdown their states & clarified that COVID19 does not spread easily on surfaces.

🔺Governor of New York Andrew Cuomo confirmed a recent health study showing that 70% of new infections actually originate at home, thus making stay at home orders one of the most dangerous mandates currently in place.

🔺Trump stopped funding the WHO and threatened to cut off money permanently until they can prove they are no longer corruptly influenced by communist China after they lied to our country about human to human transmission of COVID19 in January.

🔺The curve is flattened, the CDC, WHO, Dr. Fauci, our governors, and many more were completely wrong about the potential threat of this virus.

🔺If you are still living in fear, Don’t be. The media, global organizations, the government, and its agencies “mislead” the public.

🔺People called those of us who knew this all along conspiracy theorists, but it turns out we were just following the facts!

🔺Open up your businesses, churches, and homes. Don’t fall for the lies any longer. If you fell for the lies this time, wake up and join the army of truth seekers fighting on the front lines.

🔺 Florida has just admitted to miscalculations on some that received positive COVID-19 results but never got tested and many others have been incorrectly identified as positive in the state’s system.

🔺 WHO have just admitted that transmission of the virus from an asymptomatic carriers - the whole reason for the lockdown, is rare!! ie you could not spread it before showing any symptoms!!

⚠️ The CDC just confirmed a .4 to .26% death-rate for Covid 19. The death rate for the flu shot is .6. Twice as high as Covid!

For that, we have:

• Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt

• Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers

• Placed 60 million on food stamps

• Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment

• Crippled the petroleum industry

• Ruined the tourism industry

• Bankrupted the service industry

• Caused an impending meat and protein crisis

• Threatened, fined, and arrested church leaders

• Exacerbated mental health problems

• Shut down schools and colleges

• Given unbridled power to unelected officials

• Increased suicides higher than COVID deaths

• Delayed surgeries and treatments for profound illnesses

• Infringed upon countless important civil liberties

• Placed 300 million Americans on house arrest

Bill Gates has placed himself in such a position of influence by heavily funding all corners to make this lie happen.

We need to start treating it as the lie it is.

Seriously our whole way of life is at stake, and they have plans to make it much worse now introducing it as "the grand reset", "the beginning of the 4th revolution" (ie a surveillance state of control, where everyone lives in what is essentially a strick open air prison where you are tracked, nothing is private, and everything is decided for you, and you have no rights whatsoever, and there can be no resistance.

Welcome to their "new world order"

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Who wrote this... most of these bullets I cannot verify... The died from Covid and died with Covid was from May and many states like Colorado have separate figures for that. Ex.. Here in Colorado 1844 With Covid, 1710 From Covid. The Como homo remarks were also from May, when he was asked to respond to that statement there was a "no comment". Also all of the bullets here do not address the world situation.. Fauci admitted that he said not to wear masks because there was a lack of PPE for people who were helping those that were really sick and all the lemmings were buying cone head amounts of stuff like masks, toilet paper and all the other stuff because the Media told them to... I could go on to each point but it is pointless... Please when this kind of stuff is posted supply the data to back up the statements.

We will see in the future after this has subsided and all the Forum and Facebook and Twitter doctors and "influencers" have moved on to the next topic what the real effect of this is. There is already a great deal of real medical signs that a lot of those that didn't die suffer long after they are labeled as "recovered". As a person who had GBS (and recovered), yes is it is a different virus, but a virus none the less, 15 years later I still have numbness in my feet, hands, extreme fatigue and several other little things that they told me I would just have to live with. Here is just one example (note everyone says "may" now because so many are taking everything so literally) https://www.hackensackmeridian…term-effects-of-covid-19/

While I do believe there has been some over reaction to this. I believe that the people who lost those close to them from Covid do not care about this bullshit. I am not afraid of the Covid like the above meme suggests, but take the same precautions as I would during the regular flu season. If anyone really wants to get the full blown Covid and let us know how it was after a respirator and 30 or more days in intensive care... Please do and let us know.

there are just some people who always have to have a conspiracy - for whatever reason they just can't accept the obvious no matter how much more sense it makes - instead they believe other crap they are told even though it would be virtually impossible

like the morons who think 9/11 was done by our own government - - for some reason in their sick minds that makes more sense to them than the idea it was done by a sworn enemy and also despite that that same enemy took credit for it after it was done and on top of that anyone who watched TV that day could see the airplanes flying into the towers - - - but no - they wont accept that - - - very sick people

An interesting thing I found out yesterday - for some time it has been known that all of our local public and charter schools are going to start off this semester with remote learning and then in a month or so switch to a hybrid system where they alternate students from remote learning to in the classroom learning this way they can keep the number of students on campus at any time to a number that can socially distance

Until yesterday I just assumed all of our schools were going to do this, but I was wrong - On August 8 our largest Christian K through 12 school is going to open for full in the classroom classes - no social distancing just like everything is 100% normal

looks to me like the left is getting its wish - kill off the conservatives and kill off the Christians - - - it amazes me how they are tricking conservatives into being stupid - - and it amazes me how smart people are falling for it - -

Quote from billythekidd

Who wrote this... most of these bullets I cannot verify... The died from Covid and died with Covid was from May and many states like Colorado have separate figures for that. Ex.. Here in Colorado 1844 With Covid, 1710 From Covid. The Como homo remarks were also from May, when he was asked to respond to that statement there was a "no comment". Also all of the bullets here do not address the world situation.. Fauci admitted that he said not to wear masks because there was a lack of PPE for people who were helping those that were really sick and all the lemmings were buying cone head amounts of stuff like masks, toilet paper and all the other stuff because the Media told them to... I could go on to each point but it is pointless... Please when this kind of stuff is posted supply the data to back up the statements.

We will see in the future after this has subsided and all the Forum and Facebook and Twitter doctors and "influencers" have moved on to the next topic what the real effect of this is. There is already a great deal of real medical signs that a lot of those that didn't die suffer long after they are labeled as "recovered". As a person who had GBS (and recovered), yes is it is a different virus, but a virus none the less, 15 years later I still have numbness in my feet, hands, extreme fatigue and several other little things that they told me I would just have to live with. Here is just one example (note everyone says "may" now because so many are taking everything so literally) https://www.hackensackmeridian…term-effects-of-covid-19/

While I do believe there has been some over reaction to this. I believe that the people who lost those close to them from Covid do not care about this bullshit. I am not afraid of the Covid like the above meme suggests, but take the same precautions as I would during the regular flu season. If anyone really wants to get the full blown Covid and let us know how it was after a respirator and 30 or more days in intensive care... Please do and let us know.

I have a friend in his 30's that had it and now has heart problems that are a result of having had the virus. Yes it happens.

This is a little long but since it's from a doctor it's gotta be true right?

This from Dr. Chuck Gbur, Cardiologist in Toledo. It is a long read, but so worth it.

Re: COVID-19

I have been dark for the most part since this pandemic thing started. I have seen enough now that I feel it is time to share my experiences and thoughts. I am not an “Expert” like you see on CNN. However, I did earn a BS in combined sciences with an emphasis in biology and chemistry, a Doctor of Medicine degree, and completed an Internal Medicine Residency and Cardiology Fellowship. I also did post graduate work towards a PhD in Physiology, completing essentially everything short of the final few experiments to complete my thesis. I did extensive lab work using molecular biology looking at heat shock proteins. I also spent 25 years in the military working on numerous staff’s, participating in exercises and courses covering the spectrum of CBR warfare to medical logistics, Naval War College, etc. I have been a practicing Interventional Cardiologist for 25 years.

When this COVID-19 “pandemic” started, I was skeptical and felt there was a lot of people and politicians overreacting. By the end of March, I was asked to be part of our Hospital Incident Command System. At that time, I remained a little skeptical, but did my job to plan for the “worst case scenario”. I did this based on projections and models, realizing full well that no plan survives the first shot. I watched the local and national news, tract data from numerous sources, and read people’s responses and comments on social media. As time went on, the dots became less and less connected. Things didn’t and don’t add up. I am no longer skeptical, now I am convinced this entire “pandemic” has been massively mismanaged and when this is looked at retrospectively in the future, nothing short of a massive Charlie Foxtrot. Several comments/observations:

• First, I believe this virus was not naturally occurring, but genetically manipulated. I still have not formed an opinion as to whether the release was accidental or intentional.

• I think this virus was present at least several months prior to being recognized.

• People need to understand that the entire draconian response that we are witnessing was designed with a mission statement to “flatten the curve”. Not to save lives, reduce deaths or anything like that. Flattening the curve is like squishing a water balloon. You don’t change the volume in the end. You just spread things out over a longer period of time- thereby not overwhelming the hospitals.

• New York and Ohio are different. So is Wyoming and South Dakota and every other geographical area in the country. It makes no sense to develop blanket policies and apply them to a very big and diverse country. This includes nearly every policy developed by medical professional organizations, regulatory bodies, state and local health departments and the government as a whole.

• I believe Dr. Amy Acton in Ohio is a very smart person and has the best intentions at heart, but she suffers from tunnel vision and lacks “operational experience”. She was assigned a mission and will do anything to complete it- without taking into account all of the impact and unintended consequences her decisions caused. I don’t fault her, I was once a ‘young’ battalion surgeon at a Combined Arms Exercise (CAX) with 3/25 Marines. I had tunnel vision then and didn’t give a rat’s ass about anything but taking care of my battalion. Later as a little older Regimental surgeon and the MAGTF surgeon at CAX, I had a new perspective. Now I was the one all the other medical personnel below me bitched about, claimed I was taking their assets or personnel. It was because now I was responsible for not just a battalion, but an entire Marine Air Ground Task Force. And more importantly, not only was I responsible for the medical care of the MAGTF, my overriding and primary objective was to complete the assigned mission of the commanding general. Way too many policies and decisions were made based on the wrong “mission statement”. In my opinion, the mission statement should have been something like “To develop policies and procedures to mitigate/minimize the impact of COVID-19 on the population and the normal operation of the country.”

• This virus is much more prevalent than reported or realized. Some studies suggest, 50 times more people have been exposed than detected. I suspect that it’s much larger. So, if we accept the 50X number, for every diagnosed case, there are 50 people out there that have it. Of those diagnosed, 80-90+% have either no symptoms or minimal to moderate symptoms. A small percentage get seriously sick, and many will die. Those that die in general are old, have other medical issues and comorbidity. Yes, I know, there are the occasional children and young people that get sick, have other manifestations (Kawasaki like illnesses, strokes, etc.), however you see that in most viral illnesses, such as the flu. It just receives absolutely no attention from the media or social media.

(Continued on next post)

• This virus will run it’s course and we can’t stop it. We may change it’s velocity or trajectory, but in the end, the same number of people will die. Keep that in mind. The same number will die. We have destroyed the economy and in the end the only thing we will be able to show is an economy in shambles and policy changes that have far reaching and irreversible consequences.

• For those of you that argue it is worth giving up “freedom” for “protection”- you are dead wrong. And in the end, you will have given up freedom and not be any safer.

• Again, we have done nothing to “cure” anyone. There is no FDA approved treatment. Hydroxychloroquine has been reported to be effective in numerous small trials. The drug is safe and cheap. Most of the military have taken it at some point. The use of this drug has been affected by politics and finances. The media and pharmaceutical companies do everything in their power to discredit a drug that cost $0.06 and is mentioned by Trump for another unapproved drug that cost $1,000.00 a day. Am I being cynical? Maybe. But keep following the money.

• “Herd Immunity” is the only thing that will really protect us. Either by vaccine (which doesn’t exist yet) or naturally occurring. By that, people need exposed, infected and then develop antibodies and immunity.

• People should be allowed to social gather. We should not be under this ‘soft’ Martial Law. If consenting adults make a decision to gather, especially on their private property, they should be allowed to, in fact they should be encouraged. If they become infected, most will not even know it. But they will be growing the herd.

• High risk people, the frail, the sick, the elderly- they should be social distancing, sheltering in place and wearing a mask. Otherwise mask and gloves are stupid and largely ineffective. A huge waste of resources.

• Speaking of wasting resources- wiping down every grocery cart, limiting access to stores, and all of the other stupid things we are doing haven’t shown to really do anything. Just wash your hands.

• Closing the schools was a mistake. All of the policies being made to reopen some time with desks 6 feet apart, not allow kids to eat in the cafeteria, etc. are not going to be effective, not protect anything, cost an immense amount of money and place a huge unnecessary burden on the school systems. Kids for the most part do really well and account for a small fraction of the cases, despite what the media tells you. They are little vectors of disease. If they stayed in school, they would all have been exposed, immune and happy and healthy, and no longer be a risk to their grandparents and other relatives at risk.

• Life in this country will never be the same. The “new norm” isn’t normal at all. In fact it’s bullshit.

• The unintended consequences of our decisions have yet to be realized but will be far reaching. I am going to LMAO once the Sokolove Law commercials come out looking for people exposed to hand sanitizer who have cancer. Just wait, it’s coming.

• There will be a “second wave” as we relax the martial law mandates. It is inevitable. Again, we didn’t do anything to stop the virus.

• If the government tries to tighten things up again, I do not think people will comply this time. Sure, the uninformed sheep will, but most people won’t.

• Yes, I know some of you had this and were really sick, felt like hell. That’s what viruses do. That’s what the flu does too.

• Yes, I know this isn’t the flu. The major difference clinically though is that there is no immunity anywhere. So, it is much more virulent. But it also isn’t some alien virus like the Andromeda Strain.

• There is most likely going to be a major food shortage this Summer and Fall. Partially due to supply chain disruption, decreased production and panic buying.

• There will likely be a spike in violent crimes- hungry people do things like that. Plus, many communities are being forced to cut back on social services due to decreases in revenue. Our local community has cut 10% of the police force because of revenue shortfalls.

• If the virus gets introduced to a tight group of old and frail people with multiple medical problems and no immunity- many will get infected and many will die. That’s what happens in nursing homes. It happens with the flu too, just not as bad because some partial immunity and protection from the flu vaccine. But it still happens.

• All of the statistics are garbage. When the State comes out and instructs you to list COVID-19 as the cause of death on death certificates regardless of actual cause of death, something is wrong. The asymptomatic COVID-19 + person hit by a truck didn’t die from the virus. Then 2 weeks later you are instructed to count a suspected case as an official case- we will never be able to look at the data and draw reasonable conclusions.

• The sooner people get out and get on with their lives, the better we all will be. A flatten curved is just a long drawn out tragedy causing far more harm than good.

• There is going to be increasing polarization in society, it has already been pretty bad. But mix in an election year and throw in a pandemic, gasoline on the fire.

• Speaking of gasoline- when oil hit -$40.00/barrel (that’s negative forty dollars), think what that means. Yea, maybe lower gas prices, but it also crippled the American oil industry. The environmental extremist may be thrilled- but wait until they are hungry. The appearance of the virus during this glut is one thing that makes me wonder about an intentional release of the virus.

• The next war isn’t going to be guns and bombs- but economic warfare, cyber warfare using viruses to wreck economies.

• The future isn’t really that bright.

- Dr. Chuck Gbur

Edward Neal I dont understand your logic here: "looks to me like the left is getting its wish - kill off the conservatives and kill off the Christians - - - it amazes me how they are tricking conservatives into being stupid - - and it amazes me how smart people are falling for it - -"

If the CDC is saying the mask doesn't stop someone from getting the virus how does not wearing one make it easier to kill conservatives and Christians?

Quote from Red

Edward Neal I dont understand your logic here: "looks to me like the left is getting its wish - kill off the conservatives and kill off the Christians - - - it amazes me how they are tricking conservatives into being stupid - - and it amazes me how smart people are falling for it - -"

If the CDC is saying the mask doesn't stop someone from getting the virus how does not wearing one make it easier to kill conservatives and Christians?

its really very simple

question - - What is the easiest way to get a conservative to not wear a mask or socially distance???

answer - - - have Democrats tell them to do it - - - - - -In our divided political landscape the one sure way to control one side is by having the other side tell them what they must do - - you know they will do the exact opposite - - every time

Right now the left is telling everyone to wear masks and to socially distance - - and Conservatives and Christians, as one would expect, are objecting and refusing to do so - - yelling "its our right"

does anyone really think the left didnt know this would happen? does anyone really think it wasn't exactly what they wanted?

also having the general public wear non medical grade face coverings is not about protecting the person wearing it from the virus - - the idea is for the face covering to reduce the distance that moisture that is expelled when we cough or sneeze can travel - - the idea is to keep the wearer from shooting their germs across the room - - and this has been proven to in fact help reduce the spread of germs

if you are a conservative the left does not want you and your conservative friends to wear masks, and unfortunately it looks like they are getting their wish

think about it - - if you wear a mask and wash your hands and socially distance and I am wrong nothing bad happens

on the other hand if you dont wear a mask or wash your hands or socially distance and you are wrong - - you or someone you love could die

its the one thing about this I just dont get - - why wouldn't you wear a mask? - - other than being stubborn what do you have to gain?

Quote from Edward Neal

its really very simple

question - - What is the easiest way to get a conservative to not wear a mask or socially distance???

answer - - - have Democrats tell them to do it - - - - - -In our divided political landscape the one sure way to control one side is by having the other side tell them what they must do - - you know they will do the exact opposite - - every time

Right now the left is telling everyone to wear masks and to socially distance - - and Conservatives and Christians, as one would expect, are objecting and refusing to do so - - yelling "its our right"

does anyone really think the left didnt know this would happen? does anyone really think it wasn't exactly what they wanted?

also having the general public wear non medical grade face coverings is not about protecting the person wearing it from the virus - - the idea is for the face covering to reduce the distance that moisture that is expelled when we cough or sneeze can travel - - the idea is to keep the wearer from shooting their germs across the room - - and this has been proven to in fact help reduce the spread of germs

if you are a conservative the left does not want you and your conservative friends to wear masks, and unfortunately it looks like they are getting their wish

think about it - - if you wear a mask and wash your hands and socially distance and I am wrong nothing bad happens

on the other hand if you dont wear a mask or wash your hands or socially distance and you are wrong - - you or someone you love could die

its the one thing about this I just dont get - - why wouldn't you wear a mask? - - other than being stubborn what do you have to gain?

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Now you have let the cat out of the bag. It will, however, been seen as fake news. The Right will (hopefully) party on unprotected and close up. Have you ever seen the OLD movie, Metropolis? It's as true today as it was when the movie was made.

Sissies wear masks. Real men go camo.

The way I see it is as follows:

Every day that large numbers of the population refuse to wear masks and socially distance is another day that the government can use that as an excuse to keep business shut down

I dont want to be a part of giving them that excuse

If I do these things and they dont make a difference then I have hurt no one - on the other hand if I dont do them and they do make a difference I could potentially carry the virus to people I care about and cause them harm.

I dont want to do that either

Other than a slight discomfort I dont see a downside to taking these simple precautions

on the other hand the possible downsides of keeping the country shutdown longer or hurting someone I care about are huge

people not wearing masks are not helping anyone, they are not helping the economy get back open, they are not trying to reduce the spread of virus - - frankly they are just being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn - - please tell me one upside for anyone other than yourself for you not wearing a mask?

Herman Cain

Didn't wear a mask

Didn't socially distance

caught Covid 19

Now he is dead

Would he be alive if he had worn a mask and socially distanced - - - I don't know

But I am pretty darn sure it wouldn't have hurt

Quote from Edward Neal

its really very simple

question - - What is the easiest way to get a conservative to not wear a mask or socially distance???

answer - - - have Democrats tell them to do it - - - - - -In our divided political landscape the one sure way to control one side is by having the other side tell them what they must do - - you know they will do the exact opposite - - every time

Right now the left is telling everyone to wear masks and to socially distance - - and Conservatives and Christians, as one would expect, are objecting and refusing to do so - - yelling "its our right"

does anyone really think the left didnt know this would happen? does anyone really think it wasn't exactly what they wanted?

also having the general public wear non medical grade face coverings is not about protecting the person wearing it from the virus - - the idea is for the face covering to reduce the distance that moisture that is expelled when we cough or sneeze can travel - - the idea is to keep the wearer from shooting their germs across the room - - and this has been proven to in fact help reduce the spread of germs

if you are a conservative the left does not want you and your conservative friends to wear masks, and unfortunately it looks like they are getting their wish

think about it - - if you wear a mask and wash your hands and socially distance and I am wrong nothing bad happens

on the other hand if you dont wear a mask or wash your hands or socially distance and you are wrong - - you or someone you love could die

its the one thing about this I just dont get - - why wouldn't you wear a mask? - - other than being stubborn what do you have to gain?

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If a mask doesn't stop it not wearing a mask also doesnt stop it. To die from it you must contract it, what different does it make to you if you don't wear one? BTW the church I attend is very big on masks and have closed every other pew for social distancing. They also give out masks and have invested in no touch communion.

Quote from Red

If a mask doesn't stop it not wearing a mask also doesnt stop it. To die from it you must contract it, what different does it make to you if you don't wear one? BTW the church I attend is very big on masks and have closed every other pew for social distancing. They also give out masks and have invested in no touch communion.

I am very glad your church is taking precautions - I wish our Christian school were, but unfortunately they have decided to do nothing different than any other school year

as to the mask - - test it yourself - - put a mask on and cough with your hand out in front, then do it without the mask - - I would be willing to bet the strength with which the breath can be felt on your hand is stronger without the mask - - the mask is only supposed to keep it down to under 6 feet - which is why the 6 feet is the recommended social distancing distance

like I said - - why not wear one? - - what do you have to lose?

I haven't found anyone who will answer this question about masks and airborne spread. The mask stops the virus when it's in droplets of fluid, what keeps the virus in the mask after the liquid evaporates and you exhale or cough?

Two positives for people catching and recovering from covid-19.

1. Convalescent plasma therapy is one of the few good treatments for covid. It is produced by recovered patients.

2. Herd immunity. Many have bought into the concept that herd immunity can only be achieved with a vaccine. The human body creates antibodies from exposure via the virus or a possible vaccine. Neither one is 100% so even with a vaccine people will die before herd immunity is achieved.

Some people are willing to take the risk to help others with plasma and moving toward herd amunity. Why not protect/isolate the vulnerable and let those who choose to take the risk?

Quote from Red

I guess location has a lot to do with the Rona. The local hospital is laying off employees because they don't have enough patients to pay the staff. Only eight covid patients in the entire hospital. The only restriction here is mask required in retail establishments over 10,000 sqft.

the numbers depend on whether it’s a red state or blue state.....and who is in charge of that state...

Quote from Edward Neal

Herman Cain

Didn't wear a mask

Didn't socially distance

caught Covid 19

Now he is dead

Would he be alive if he had worn a mask and socially distanced - - - I don't know

But I am pretty darn sure it wouldn't have hurt

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I haven’t heard a concrete explanation of where he got exposed.....some are saying the trump rally but that was several weeks before .....maybe one of the younger relatives brought it home...don’t forget Herman had big medical problems also....

Quote from Edward Neal

my wife and son in law both got tested - both came back negative and both are doing great and have remained negative

Also my wife's work, an Indian owned casino that has 2 casino/hotel properties and employees over 1,000 people, mandated that every employee get tested and by far the vast majority came back negative and despite your silly idea that the test gives the virus they have remained negative as well

again there were early reports about tainted swabs coming here from other countries...so did they get destroyed? Did they mysteriously disappear? Are they in the system somewhere?
I had a hospital procedure a few months ago and they asked me if I wanted tested and I refused....no symptoms, no sense...