Rabtech's Haltech install and other items to make HP

Sounds great!

Quote from Shatneyman

Awesome, what would a set up cost with a digital dash at the same time? I can PM you so we don't wreck the thread,.... sorry Rab!

PM my ass!!! keep it here... inquiring minds want to know !!!

Alpha has had them listed at just under $2k
Polaris Slingshot Plug & Play Standalone System By Haltech – Alpha Powersport Store

sent from my FAST red slingshot

I wanted to point out a number of things brought up in this thread, with the end result showing why you most likely do not want any part of buying or installing a Haltech (or any other aftermarket) ecu. I’ve spoken with Dave at DDM and Rabtech about this at length today.

First, let’s look at a few dyno charts from 3 widely varying sources:
Suzuki Hayabusa turbo motorcycle:
http://www.powerhousemc.com/chart3.gif
Well built LS V8 dyno chart:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/…357018&stc=1&d=1334158810
Tesla dyno charts:
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/…v3-power-output-graph.jpg
http://teslaforum.dk/ow_userfi…s/base/981-Tesla_Dyno.png

All 3 of these vehicles types would be considered very quick. The Hayabusa turbo would take a very skilled rider to extract maximum performance out of it. The Tesla, your blind grandmother could look like a hero at the drag strip with. The point here is you ideally want a very broad flat torque curve across a large RPM range for a usable and responsive performance vehicle. The LS V8 dyno chart from above shows a near ideal curve for a gasoline powered engine.

Now let’s look specifically at Rabtech’s posted dyno charts from his Slingshot.
From the “I knew it was strong. But not 510hp strong” thread:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.co…192a801e8b3a6b8a05c09.jpg
and the latest dyno charts:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.c…37f30f32bb863e9d28fe6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.c…05660446454992ed591e1.jpg

What’s shown in the first dyno chart is a pretty much a stock Hahn turbo setup with the boost turned up, and in the second a highly customized turbo setup by Dave at DDM works. Hardware is quite different, but HP and torque numbers are very close, considering this was run on the same dyno. Weather and temperature conditions favored the most recent pulls quite a bit. The point here is the area under the torque curve is quite a bit higher in the first chart in the range where you would feel it in normal driving.

It should be pointed out that Dave sized this latest turbo and setup for more of a top end charge. From Dave and Robert’s account this top end is very strong and their goal was achieved. A larger turbo and much larger injectors were used, which do not perform as well at the low end and in normal use or driving conditions. The result is this setup is closer to the Hayabusa dyno chart from above, although not nearly as peaky.

The labor and cost needed to achieve Rabtech’s and Dave latest build would be exorbitantly high for most anyone attempting to buy this Haltech ecm setup and duplicate the results shown above. By Dave’s account he had at least 40 hours into tuning alone and finding someone of his talent and skill level at anything less than $100/hour would be difficult. The base tune provided to him was of almost no use and severely lacking from his description. I have been in this situation many times with different types of aftermarket ecm systems, and it is an ugly deal even for someone who really understands what needs to be done. Many kudo’s to Dave for being able to achieve what he did.

From a reliability and capability standpoint the Haltech ecm is not even in the same arena as the stock MEFI ecm. None of the aftermarket ecm’s are, although many do have nice features. The MEFI6/E78 controllers encompass GM's best engine management technology up to that point in time. Think of it in terms of the R&D and the strenuous testing, validation time, and dollars spent on an ecm and control system of this nature versus something like an aftermarket ecm. The aftermarket companies are spending fractions of a penny on development and production for each dollar the OEM spends, and it is this way with any aftermarket versus OEM ecm or ecu, be it from Bosch, Denso, GM or whoever.

A good reliability example is the way it was recommended to mount Rabtech’s ecu in the passenger compartment to avoid heat. The reason for this is the failure rates are relatively high for aftermarket ecm’s in rugged environments compared to OEM ecm’s. You are not going to see Haltech, Fast, Holley or any of the aftermarket ecm manufacturers advertising their relatively high failure rates or quirky problems with software interfaces. Over the years I have experienced way too many of these hardware and software failure rodeos with these aftermarket ecm’s that turn into nothing but huge time and money sinks.

From a capability standpoint, it comes down to the complexity of the algorithms controlling the various functions, the granularity of control, and the robustness of the hardware implementation in the OEM ecm. Again, not even close in this area, especially in respect to detonation control and malfunction condition handling. Given the same engine hardware, on the same day, under the same conditions, with an optimized tune, the OEM (MEFI in this instance) ecm will outperform an aftermarket ecm. For an aftermarket ecm to perform close to equally is a huge win for that manufacturer. I have run these tests for an OEM. Some of the aftermarket ecm’s do have nice display readouts and logging if you like watching data, and for some applications this is extremely useful.

For those who can point out an instance of “my aunt’s girlfriend’s cousin had a PSI blown tall deck big block Chevy that picked up 100hp going from a OEM ecm to an (AEM, Fast, Holley, Haltech, Motec, etc.) ecm” I get it. Man bites dog in those .01% of cases. That does not apply here.

For those of you who want to “own your tune” (by the way, this forum needs a funny button like the other one), you can put a carburetor on your ecotec and you can twist the screw driver all you want.... you have full control! Will this work and run the engine... sure. Is it a good idea... not so much.... this is of course unless you get your jollies from that type of thing. For some that is the overriding factor.

So, with a Haltech (or other aftermarket setups), you have something less reliable, far more costly, and not as capable as the ecm you already have on the Slingshot from the factory. What you gain from the Haltech is being able to fiddle with it, and for this many props to Dave at DDM for the good result he got from what little he had to start with. I have to really applaud Rabtech for undertaking such a project, and at the end of the day, him being happy with it is the most important thing. Him pushing the envelop with all the things he has tried along the way benefits everyone with these vehicles.

Bob

@MEFIburn interesting to hear i thought the stock ecm was what was holding back the guys looking for more power. bob do you have a current tune or are you working on a tune with the stock ecm to handle more power ?

Quote from MEFIburn

I wanted to point out a number of things brought up in this thread, with the end result showing why you most likely do not want any part of buying or installing a Haltech (or any other aftermarket) ecu. I’ve spoken with Dave at DDM and Rabtech about this at length today.

First, let’s look at a few dyno charts from 3 widely varying sources:
Suzuki Hayabusa turbo motorcycle:
http://www.powerhousemc.com/chart3.gif
Well built LS V8 dyno chart:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/…357018&stc=1&d=1334158810
Tesla dyno charts:
http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/…v3-power-output-graph.jpg
http://teslaforum.dk/ow_userfi…s/base/981-Tesla_Dyno.png

All 3 of these vehicles types would be considered very quick. The Hayabusa turbo would take a very skilled rider to extract maximum performance out of it. The Tesla, your blind grandmother could look like a hero at the drag strip with. The point here is you ideally want a very broad flat torque curve across a large RPM range for a usable and responsive performance vehicle. The LS V8 dyno chart from above shows a near ideal curve for a gasoline powered engine.

Now let’s look specifically at Rabtech’s posted dyno charts from his Slingshot.
From the “I knew it was strong. But not 510hp strong” thread:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.co…192a801e8b3a6b8a05c09.jpg
and the latest dyno charts:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.c…37f30f32bb863e9d28fe6.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.c…05660446454992ed591e1.jpg

What’s shown in the first dyno chart is a pretty much a stock Hahn turbo setup with the boost turned up, and in the second a highly customized turbo setup by Dave at DDM works. Hardware is quite different, but HP and torque numbers are very close, considering this was run on the same dyno. Weather and temperature conditions favored the most recent pulls quite a bit. The point here is the area under the torque curve is quite a bit higher in the first chart in the range where you would feel it in normal driving.

It should be pointed out that Dave sized this latest turbo and setup for more of a top end charge. From Dave and Robert’s account this top end is very strong and their goal was achieved. A larger turbo and much larger injectors were used, which do not perform as well at the low end and in normal use or driving conditions. The result is this setup is closer to the Hayabusa dyno chart from above, although not nearly as peaky.

The labor and cost needed to achieve Rabtech’s and Dave latest build would be exorbitantly high for most anyone attempting to buy this Haltech ecm setup and duplicate the results shown above. By Dave’s account he had at least 40 hours into tuning alone and finding someone of his talent and skill level at anything less than $100/hour would be difficult. The base tune provided to him was of almost no use and severely lacking from his description. I have been in this situation many times with different types of aftermarket ecm systems, and it is an ugly deal even for someone who really understands what needs to be done. Many kudo’s to Dave for being able to achieve what he did.

From a reliability and capability standpoint the Haltech ecm is not even in the same arena as the stock MEFI ecm. None of the aftermarket ecm’s are, although many do have nice features. The MEFI6/E78 controllers encompass GM's best engine management technology up to that point in time. Think of it in terms of the R&D and the strenuous testing, validation time, and dollars spent on an ecm and control system of this nature versus something like an aftermarket ecm. The aftermarket companies are spending fractions of a penny on development and production for each dollar the OEM spends, and it is this way with any aftermarket versus OEM ecm or ecu, be it from Bosch, Denso, GM or whoever.

A good reliability example is the way it was recommended to mount Rabtech’s ecu in the passenger compartment to avoid heat. The reason for this is the failure rates are relatively high for aftermarket ecm’s in rugged environments compared to OEM ecm’s. You are not going to see Haltech, Fast, Holley or any of the aftermarket ecm manufacturers advertising their relatively high failure rates or quirky problems with software interfaces. Over the years I have experienced way too many of these hardware and software failure rodeos with these aftermarket ecm’s that turn into nothing but huge time and money sinks.

From a capability standpoint, it comes down to the complexity of the algorithms controlling the various functions, the granularity of control, and the robustness of the hardware implementation in the OEM ecm. Again, not even close in this area, especially in respect to detonation control and malfunction condition handling. Given the same engine hardware, on the same day, under the same conditions, with an optimized tune, the OEM (MEFI in this instance) ecm will outperform an aftermarket ecm. For an aftermarket ecm to perform close to equally is a huge win for that manufacturer. I have run these tests for an OEM. Some of the aftermarket ecm’s do have nice display readouts and logging if you like watching data, and for some applications this is extremely useful.

For those who can point out an instance of “my aunt’s girlfriend’s cousin had a PSI blown tall deck big block Chevy that picked up 100hp going from a OEM ecm to an (AEM, Fast, Holley, Haltech, Motec, etc.) ecm” I get it. Man bites dog in those .01% of cases. That does not apply here.

For those of you who want to “own your tune” (by the way, this forum needs a funny button like the other one), you can put a carburetor on your ecotec and you can twist the screw driver all you want.... you have full control! Will this work and run the engine... sure. Is it a good idea... not so much.... this is of course unless you get your jollies from that type of thing. For some that is the overriding factor.

So, with a Haltech (or other aftermarket setups), you have something less reliable, far more costly, and not as capable as the ecm you already have on the Slingshot from the factory. What you gain from the Haltech is being able to fiddle with it, and for this many props to Dave at DDM for the good result he got from what little he had to start with. I have to really applaud Rabtech for undertaking such a project, and at the end of the day, him being happy with it is the most important thing. Him pushing the envelop with all the things he has tried along the way benefits everyone with these vehicles.

Bob

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Bob

Thanks for your detailed explanation

My question to you is how can we work together to get a custom tune from you to overcome some of the issues we are having lean conditions at the high end of our power curves. I for one would love to take advantage of an electronic boost controller, however with the current tune we have had some challenges we have yet to overcome. I know you and Dave have spoke about this but since I am one of the guys who can turn the screw on a carburetor I have no clue how to tune an ECU I am not even sure if we can solve the problem. I know Dave has all the data. If you can review it maybe we can come up with a solution and chase the horse power Jennie with one of your tunes.

Mitch

@MACAWS you have lean conditions ? I'm having the opposite at WOT, usually when shifting into third or fourth. ill get this flat spot, where i lose power momentarily then it will come back,its just weird it doesn't do it all the time. almost like the motor is flooding out real quick . my afr gauge will be reading in the 10's. have yet to have a lean issue using green spring with alpha setup.

Quote from jluna317

@MACAWS you have lean conditions ? I'm having the opposite at WOT, usually when shifting into third or fourth. ill get this flat spot, where i lose power momentarily then it will come back,its just weird it doesn't do it all the time. almost like the motor is flooding out real quick . my afr gauge will be reading in the 10's. have yet to have a lean issue using green spring with alpha setup.

@jluna317

My conditions are slightly different. I am running a built motor and when using an electronic boost controller we ran into a s situation where the controller would build boost faster than the tune could supply fuel. The safety on the boost controller would trip as soon as it when lean.

Currently I an using a green spring without the boost controller and we are all good. The mechanical spring builds boost slower so we do not have the same condition.

This is and an exhaust issue is holding me at my current levels.

I hope I explained that correctly - I do prefer carburetors only because I am an old fart and I know how they work.

@rabtech you have definitely taken things to the next level. is that new power safe for every day driving ? And @MACAWS running the same boost solenoid scg1,currently waiting for my motor. I'm just trying to figure out my enrichment issue I know a few guys having the same one. And then you guys are having lean issues just a weird situation. I can't get a straight answer any where I ask . And now I'm just trying to figure out this hiccup with out having to start spending crazy money on the tuning end.i know haltech is paving the road for us or trying to atleast , but I know goin That route is not as easy as it looks so maybe bob will get back to us and maybe help us address both ends

I would like to add to what bob has explained in detail on what issues you may or may not have with a reflashed stock ecu versus replacing it with a Haltech . I agree that most will not need anything other than what bob has worked really hard at achieving.
Haltech is not for everyone and is expensive , no disagreement here .
Now with that being said , Haltech is a recent product that has started from scratch a year ago to adapt to the slingshot which I had to start from nothing to now and yes not only countless hours and insane amount of money for R&D and as bob so kindly put it , a much needed funny button on achieving my own tune because I wanted to burn my slingshot to the ground .
But look at where we started to where we are with Rabtech and Daves success. Rome was not built in a day and I stand behind the Haltech solution for the guys who want to turn that screw on the fly and use a product that is intended to adapt to your slingshot for race car performance applications.
Yes the base tunes are intended to provide a minimum and simple tune to get you to your local tuner and that's the point , not intended to install and go race out of the box .
My intent is not to take anything away from bob and his hard work or be offensive , my intent is to share with my fellow SS family what I have achieved and to offer a product that race car enthusiast would like to try .

@oneshot
Thanks for the hard work that has provided us with an alternative. You have come a long way in a year and now have provided the much needed tuning to make even @rabtech happy. Your professional reply is exactly why you will be successful within our family, especially with the meticulously power crazy ones.
Thank you for pushing the envelope.

Quote from rabtech

Dave has my 4-barrel quadrajet tuned pretty well........

She had enough power to break a hot back tire loose at exactly 100mph on a dry paved interstate on ramp. Did it twice with 2 different drivers.

Here is my issue... I have fought and fought the super lean condition with both the Hahn and the Alpha setup. It has been so freaking annoying I wanted to scream. I can remember actually sending you videos of my Hahn system going lean every time I would be traveling over 80mph and put my foot in its ass to make it go... actually 90% of the time it would go lean and 10% of the time it would richen up. Tell me that wouldn't drive you crazy as shit.... This was when I had my Hahn and I could watch it start climbing in AFR till it got to 14 and higher... not good.... Now the Alpha system was slightly better. But even it leans out at high speed... i actually think most people don't run their slingshots at those kind of speeds and for the same durations. That is what has saved them from melting an engine.. I want every ounce of speed I can get. Weather it's safe or sane to push this thing that hard is another issue not for this thread...But I want the engine to be happy and healthy while giving me all that speed and power.. Right now it is. ...that is all I can claim...

I will also make this claim. I have had many many owners of BOTH systems call and message me about this lean condition. I am doubting any owners of these systems that are on the market could put thier slingshot in 4th or 5th gear and hold it to the floor for a mile or more.. Guess what. I can ..... and my fuel ratio is perfect now and it pulls and pulls..... and it stays perfect. As a matter of a fact my fuel ratios are dead perfect at ANY given point and at any load I put on it... I will gladly let anyone drive it or ride with me at and watch my AFR. It's always ready to roll.....

I know the stock ecu can be tuned to do exactly what my Haltech is doing. But I haven't seen it do it yet..And it would require me sending it back and forth. And back and forth. And honestly in my case it would really need a tuner like you sitting beside it on the dyno and on the highway to tune it. Then it would be spot on. You can't beat making adjustments in real time.

I can see how the stock ecu is the ticket for 95% of the owners. But I had to have an ECU that could be tweaked in real time. I am the guy that wishes there was a faster UPS delivery method that overnight. So sending my ECU back.and forth and me driving to SC each week is not going to happen. Dave tuned my Haltech once and now had it performing much happier than my stock ECU.. and I don't have to.go back to SC to make any tweaks. I just send him my log file and he makes my changes and I upload them. No USPS or UPS or FedEx charges and I'm ready to roll in minutes.

I have no regrets in switching to a Haltech. It is giving me so much power that I can't see how there would be a stronger and smoother SS on the road. It had cured my lean condition. And it allows me to hold my foot in its ass as long as I want.

Is this.solution good for the masses? No.. Is it good for people wanting to really squeeze every drop of power out of their equipment.... From what my experience has been....yep...

Only way I would change my feeling on that is if Bob wants to come out to Alabama and tune my MEFI controller in person and ride with me to confirm it stays fat and rich when I need it to be... And I need to have some way to get changes made to it each time I change a component.... that happens quite often.
There is an upside.... We do have some good food out here in Alabama.

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I was thinking the same thing I don't have the time or money to be sending my ECU back forth cross country every time I change something on the motor or have a hiccup.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Polaris Slingshot Info mobile app

Quote from jluna317

@MACAWS you have lean conditions ? I'm having the opposite at WOT, usually when shifting into third or fourth. ill get this flat spot, where i lose power momentarily then it will come back,its just weird it doesn't do it all the time. almost like the motor is flooding out real quick . my afr gauge will be reading in the 10's. have yet to have a lean issue using green spring with alpha setup.

I have had that problem since new, in stock setup, then more noticeable with CAI, exhaust and ECM flash, and even more noticeable with the SC on it now....kind of sucks when it does it and your not expecting it, ya have to lift, let it breath a second and then punch it and away it goes....has to be in some of the ECM's but not all!

Quote from Slingrazor

@oneshot
Thanks for the hard work that has provided us with an alternative. You have come a long way in a year and now have provided the much need tuning to make even @rabtech happy. Your professional reply is exactly why you will be successful within our family, especially with the meticulously power crazy ones.
Thank you for pushing the envelope.

Thank you very much ! I'm thankful to be a member of this family and will always stay true !

@oneshot

Hey buddy I for one know how much time you have put into this and appreciate every minute you spent. You gave us a very much needed option that NO ONE ELSE would offer. Perhaps if more tuners had access to the same tools Bob has you would not have had to take on the project.
There are many of us out there that want peak performance and up until now it just wasn't there. I personally have pissed a lot of money down the tube chasing the HP Jennie and on revising tunes.

Competition is key maybe Bob can help some of us on lower budgets with some additional tuning. But it looks like after I solve some of my other issues currently you are holding my best option for success.

Thanks
See Ya Soon

Quote from JoeF.

I have had that problem since new, in stock setup, then more noticeable with CAI, exhaust and ECM flash, and even more noticeable with the SC on it now....kind of sucks when it does it and your not expecting it, ya have to lift, let it breath a second and then punch it and away it goes....has to be in some of the ECM's but not all!

You make good points that I would also like to see answered. The stutter when rolling full throttle has been documented on the from for quite sometime now and we have just made excuses for it. I just wish there was a response to the issue we are having with the MEFI flash in line with the quick and thorough response about what is thought of the HALTECH ECU.