Not Going To Riding For A While

    Quote from MiM

    Mama always said I was special... Guess 5% special... ;(

    Yes you are! ;) If around 30k Slingshots have sold, roughly 1500 people have enjoyed crapping their pants as they were spinning around helplessly.

    Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D

    Edited once, last by TravAZ ().

    Quote from TravAZ

    Yes you are! ;) If around 30k Slingshots have sold, roughly 150 people have enjoyed crapping their pants and they were spinning around helplessly.

    1500 people, not 150, and yes, I am in that 5% too. :)


    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    "And to someone above that wanted to know if an SS could go out of control if one of the many traction control input sensors goes bad my answer would be HELL YEAH...each sensor is a link in the total system...no sensor input and it doesn't know what to do."
    No sensor input would simply make it not function. With it off or on it takes an operator to crash it. If it can't be operated safely without the traction control why would it be sold with the ability to turn it off? That would create a bigger liability that it failing.

    With our experience so far, when it gets wet we have come to treat our SlingShot on the highway similar to other short-wheel based vehicles we have owned, namely Jeep, Blazer, Bronco, Scout, but thankfully the lower center of gravity of the SlingShot helps keep the shiny side up.


    Bill

    I do remember and I still have a big scar on my knuckle from crashing my tricycle see it...


    I would think there is a big difference between turning off a functioning system and one that suffers a failure...


    The ESP system gives the operator the ability to select between three different vehicle stability settings with one
    button.
    [*] During normal operation (e.g. the vehicle is started and driven away without touching the ESP button) the ESP
    system is fully active. During this time ABS, Traction Contol and Stability Control are all ACTIVE.
    [*] Touch and hold the ESP button for two seconds to shut the Traction Control OFF. The TC light on the tachometer will
    be illuminated. During this time the Traction Control characteristics will be disabled. Acceleration will be governed in
    slippery conditions.
    [*] Touch and hold the ESP button for five seconds to shut the Traction Control and Stability Control OFF. Both the TC
    light and ESP OFF light will be illuminated. During this time the Traction Control and Stability Control characteristics
    will be disabled. The ABS is always ON and cannot be shut off.
    [*] Touch the ESP button one more time to return to a fully active ESP system. There should not be any ESP lights
    illuminated at this time unless a traction I stability event occurs and the ESP system intervenes. When the ESP
    system intervenes, the ESP light flashes at 2.5 hz.
    (Above Taken from the service manual....)


    My thoughts..
    Some things worth noting...about the traction control system..


    The ABS still works....can not be turned off


    And the accelerator is governed in slippery conditions...(meaning what...the gas pedal is disabled...or the gas feed stops...)so how does it do this?


    The rear wheel speed sensor inputs to the system to tell it that the wheel is slipping...so if that sensor fails...you're going out of control...because if your foot is on the gas pedal the system can not govern the acceleration. I'm Not sure if the ABS will do anything without that sensor..in this situation...to apply braking to that wheel..


    So that question is...does the ABS need that speed sensor?


    To me this sounds like each sensor plays a critical part in the entire traction control system. They all need to work correctly. There is constant feedback from them.

    I went 800 miles without ABS when my brake sensor was bad and did not die. When the sensor malfunctioned it simply shut off the ABS. It didn't lock my brakes or make them stop working, it shut down the ABS.

    @wjfyfe makes a valid point about fearing the SS, or any other vehicle, but I don't think that is the issue here.


    A1: The hydraulic modulator is a device that does what the name implies, allowing other systems to control brake pressure. It is not the ABS, but a separate device that is used by the ABS, Traction, and Stability systems to interface with the hydraulic brake system.


    A2: Well, sensors don't control anything, they just send signals. Those signals are translated into usable data by a processor which uses the data to perform calculations that may trigger a command be sent out to a controller. Yes, the SS has a system that can apply power to the rear wheel and it is commonly referred to as "Cruise Control." ;) When engaged, the system increases or decreases power as needed to maintain a set speed. However, Cruise Control does not usually interface with the brakes, just the accelerator. Therefore, wheel speed and braking are independant systems and utilize different inputs.


    A3: You don't really take over or fight against the safety systems because don't really take control of the vehicle. The systems are are only designed to perform a specific function to help you. Once they accomplish their task they check out. Anti-lock brakes keep the wheels from locking for an extended period of time. As long as your foot is on the pedal and you leg is locked in rigid terror, the system checks inertia and wheel speed. If wheel speed is zero and inertia is not, it pulses the hydraulic modulator until either both are zero or the wheel speed is not zero. If both inertia and wheel speed are not zero, then the brakes aren't locked and the ABS does nothing. Traction and stability controls work in a similar fashion. Once traction or stability is regained (the nose is pointed in the same direction the vehicle is moving, all three wheels are on the ground and spinning at the same speed) the system stops assisting. If the vehicle is not moving in the direction you want to go, that's all on you. You still have to do the critical thinking and heavy lifting bits yourself.


    A4: No, you are not screwing up the traction control reactions because it reacts faster you. However, if your actions are counterproductive to the goal of the system, it will have to work harder and/or more often. And remember, with enough velocity and raw determination (or willful ignorance), any of these safety systems can be overwhelmed to the point that they are ineffective. :D


    Answer to Initial question about which direction to steer the SS: Assuming you are trying to recover from a skid... If the rear is skidding (oversteer, fishtail) always steer into the skid, get off the brakes, and give it a little gas. If you steer away from the skid you will initiate a full spin (doin' donuts). If the front is skidding (understeer) then ease up on the brakes and get off the gas, straighten the wheel a bit to get the tires rolling and gain some traction then gently (small movements) turn in the direction you want to go. Keep doing this until you are successful, you come to a stop, or something bigger stops you.


    In ANY loss-of-control situation, ALWAYS LOOK IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT TO GO. When driving, the more you visually fixate on something, the more likely your reflexes will react to make it happen. This is a natural phenomenon know as Target Fixation and it takes a conscience effort to avoid it.


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    Understand ABS is not the traction control system


    Without ABS then you revert back to the old fashion braking system which means any or all the wheels could lock up in a panic stop. ABS keeps the wheels from locking up by actually turning the brakes on and off really fast (in simple terms). Once you are in a skid you have limited control over the direction of the vehicle. ABS allows you to maintain control by stopping the wheels from skidding. Again this is not the same function as the traction control system. And losing ABS is not the same as losing your brakes.

    Quote from wjfyfe

    I hate to say this, but if the SlingShot scares somebody as much as it apparently does some here, maybe it would be best to move on to a different vehicle?


    Bill

    nobody is scared. The point of this is to try to determine how and why Flipr lost control and to figure out the best way to react to this situation. It’s in everybody interest to find the answer.



    @Gadgeteer, I don’t necesssrily agree with giving it more gas because the traction control system will govern the rear wheel speed. So the more gas you try to give it the more it’s going to try to govern the speed lower. You’re trying to make the rear wheel spin faster and it’s trying to slow it down. Because it’s already lost traction. Making it spin faster won’t help that.


    This is why I wanted an answer from Polaris. This isn’t just a simple question. I’ll do this and this will happen.


    Basically their are two brains involved... yours and the one in the SS. This is why I like riding motorcycles and I don’t like riding a horse. Riding a horse there are always two brains involved. The horse wants to do his thing and he can if he wants to and you want to do your thing. Maybe he doesn’t feel like running up that hill and he try’s to knock you off his back. Been there done that.., riding a horse sucks. That’s why I don’t.


    On a motorcycle their is only one superior brain.... mine. I make all decisions and it’s not trying to knock me off or go in a direction. Or slow down when I want to speed up.

    Yes, you cannot turn off ABS, but if ABS fails, you still have power brakes. If the power fails, you still have hydraulics, but they take more effort to engage. All electronic control systems in the SS assist a mechanical/hydraulic connection so you always have that to fall back on, unless the connection fails (broken linkage, hydraulic leak, etc.) None of the electronic systems take control away from the driver.


    These days, I think the accelerator is not really governed, the fuel is. That's one of the advantages of electronic fuel injection. Automated systems can regulate the fuel being pumped into the cylinders to control acceleration and deceleration. You may feel feedback in the pedals, but I'm pretty sure the regulation happens further down the line. The hydraulic modulator is a good example. It doesn't modulate the pedal, it modulates the pressure being applied to the brakes. In the case of ABS, it doesn't apply any pressure, it only reduces the pressure you apply to keep the wheels from locking up.


    If a sensor fails, any system(s) that rely on that sensor throw an error and shut down. That doesn't mean you are out of control or that the primary control linkage (mechanical, hydraulic, etc.) has failed, it just means your little safety helper has clocked out and gone home. If you mash your foot on the gas and rely on the system to regulate the fuel for you, you are doing things very wrong.


    Driving a vehicle takes skill and no safety control system built so far can replace those skills. They can help someone with poor skills (not enough to make a bad driver perform like a good one) or the occasional over-/under-reaction, but each system has limits in its ability to sense and respond to specific conditions. If you rely on these systems to make up for a lack of driving skills, you're setting yourself up for a major disappointment some day.


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams

    I think I was just called a pussy :) . Lol!! No problem we are family, made me smile and reflect where my concerns were coming from. Besides, family is more than welcome to call me out if they have concerns.


    My Wife tours with me and her safety is my priority. I read how the SS spins with little to no warning on a wet surface, I want to do all I can to make sure that does not happen. And my Wife counts on me for that.


    I plan on getting the best tires I can that have a bias towards traction in wet conditions. I will slow down to a point where I feel I am not in danger of being hit from behind. I may take a break when the rain first starts to give the slippery stuff a chance to wash away.


    If any of you have other things I have not thought of please say so. I do plan on the common sense things like making sure everything works right and I am not tired.
    Not riding in the rain is not an option. If I feel the need to do that, you are correct,the SS is not for me and I will go back to a Goldwing. My Wife and her safety count on me for that.

    If you get hit, it's because you were there.

    Cool! You ARE a fellow (two-wheeled) motorcyclist! That makes things sooooo much easier to explain. :thumbup:


    The rear end acts like a car when you have traction and it acts like a bike when you don't. Hopefully that is self explanatory, otherwise I need to fall back on the lengthy explanation I was working on. ;)


    As for motorcycles not having a brain, ABS is already showing up and I expect Traction Control will be coming along soon. If you've ever seen one of the experimental self-balancing bikes, then you already know Stability Control isn't that far off either.


    These systems aren't your adversaries, they are designed to prevent drivers from making a bad situation worse. The only time you would have to fight against them is if you were trying to intentionally make things worse. If the system senses you're pushing too hard on the brakes, it intervenes because locking the brakes is the wrong thing to do. If your front tire is lifting off the ground, the system slows the other front tire and/or increases power to the rear to push the lifting tire down. If the vehicle is skidding out of a turn, it reduces power to keep you in the turn. In any of these scenarios the vehicle is already in a precarious state. The systems only intervene to prevent the driver from mashing the pedals and making it worse. The wheel is still all yours and you can do with it as you like. You can whip it around and force the skid to get worse or even cause the vehicle to flip. You just can't add power when the system is actively reducing power. You can still use the brakes, but if any of them lock up, the ABS kicks in. They don't take control from you, they just try to prevent you from making more mistakes than you already have and even then, they are limited in how they can do it.


    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams


    Just a thought and something you might look into if you don't already have them. I feel my aftermarket shocks will help as they are more likely to keep the wheels planted on the ground right where they need to be. My advice for anyone is when it starts to downpour decrease your speed or a hydroplane incident is naturally going to happen. I have a spyder and I can spin the rear wheel as easy as just starting it up. The Slingshot is not a special or one off vehicle I this sense.


    RNJ12

    Quote from MiM

    Gadgeteer has been lured in...





    I can't help myself.



    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    ― Douglas Adams