Posts by Kyle D

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from Doc&Ruby

    Just one question, if I already have the stock cold air intake, will yours do anything different performance or sound wise from the stock equipment?

    When we did testing on the stock intake we found that the SLR intake from Polaris flowed less air than the stock air box that was on my 2015 SL and even less than our ZZP intake. This translates into our intake flowing more air creating better throttle response, better mid range punch, overall drive-ability, and albeit a small amount, more power. It also sounds throatier. You can hear the sound difference here with the intake and headers on. You can also hear the intake sucking in air where it does not on the SLR intake.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from Doc&Ruby

    Well... since I already have a CAI on my 2019 SLR, I think all I need is the header/exhaust package and the tune - about $900. I think I can swing that, as long as I do it in two pieces. I hope to do header and exhaust this summer and the tune next winter when Ruby is in the garage and the down time won't be problematical.

    The guy changed his mind and is now getting a turbo kit. I'll sell you the intake, head/muffler package, and tune for $1000. I'll even send you a tuned PCM so you have no down time. There will be a $250 refundable core charge that you will get back once I get your old PCM back. So up front would be $1250 with $250 of that being returned to you once I get your core back. That would give you a full ZZP system for only $100 more than you were originally planning on spending for just the exhaust package and tune. And then you can sell the CAI you have to recoup even more. Food for thought. Let me know if you're interested.

  • Dual front handbrake controller soon to be added

    That’s sweet! I’m adding a handle to my rear wheel to help initiate a drift so I don’t run the risk of high siding. Can’t wait to see the process and results on your install of this. Is that how they market these handles you bought for controlling the fronts individually?



    Sent from my iPhone using Polaris Slingshot Info

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from edwardaneal

    makes me wonder if there will be a stage II :/

    If we were to make a stage 2, it would be moving into 82# valve springs, a set of aggressive cams, and a tune update. I do have cams that would currently work but they are a little mild. Beyond that would be larger injectors, switching to E85, and another tune update. There, wouldn't be much left after that. This is all speculative though. It will all depend on sales of what we have for the NA currently and market demand for full on NA builds.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from edwardaneal

    It also seems to be something that could be fairly easily reversed - Living in California we are not supposed to make any changes that remove smog control things like the cat. There are no inspections or tests at the moment, but with California you never know if that could change. As such being able to put it back stock long enough to pass a test might be important down the road. As to the tune, that would have to depend on pricing

    All of these mods are easily reversible. You would not have to change the tune back to stock for inspection. However, if you wanted to keep your stock PCM and have me send you a tuned PCM so you have both, that is something I can accommodate. When you get to a point where you think you want to pull the trigger, email me directly at Kyle@zzperformance.com and I can get something set up where you could either go to CBM and pick it up or I could have them drop ship one to you.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from Neosolidus

    Thanks Kyle D that answers my question , so when do you expect to start taking orders?

    I am hoping to have everything ready to go on my end (website stuff and coordination with CBM) by late next week but I am going to try to make it happen sooner. The tune alone will be $350 and the Stage 1 NA Performance Package which will include our cold air intake, header and muffler exhaust package, and tune will be $1139.99. I will definitely keep you guys posted and make a new products release post when everything is ready.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    The reason we made the tune on 93 is because we do not have 91 octane anywhere around us. You are completely entitled to your opinion but it's just the fact of the matter. I cannot use what I do not have. It would be like you giving me an omelet and saying you made it with ostrich eggs and I told you, it's my opinion that is/was a mistake and you should've used chicken eggs because that's what is available to most people. But if you do not have chicken eggs available to you, how could make one with them?


    Al also did say "it would really need to be done on a dyno. In reality, this was still at a fairly conservative level and I would not be surprised if it also ran well on 91. We were not at the knock limit of 93 with the final tune, and additional timing was not making significant changes signifying it was at/near MBT. That leads me to the conclusion that similar gains are probable on 91." With that said, the question is someone running 91 octane going to see an improvement in overall drive-ability? Absolutely. The power numbers should also be pretty close to 93. I think the tune on 91 is going to be an improvement over the stock tune definitely. While the raw power gains were not huge, from what I felt, it definitely woke the Slingshot up and it felt better over the entire power band, the mid range felt a lot stronger, and the SS was a lot more responsive overall.


    What I think Al was really trying to say in regards to "people running 91 skipping the tune or saving your money for boost", is that the bang for the buck on a turbo kit is far higher than a NA setup and that's just the honest truth. Once you factor in the cost of the NA parts and a tune, you're right around half the cost of a turbo kit. But turbo kits aren't for everybody whether it is because of budget, or they just plain do not want to do it. Not all of us are out there running 1/2 miles with our Slingshots or roll racing on the highway pushing the SS well beyond what it was designed to do. But their inner child is screaming at them FASTER!! and there is a market for that, that we fill with our turbo kit. But there's also a huge market for the people that do not feel the need to do that. And adding the NA parts we offer and a tune that will make it how it should have been will fill those needs as well. So maybe the better bang for the buck is really a matter of perspective and what the individual is really looking to accomplish. Do the guys using their SS as a daily and/or just having fun and enjoying the Slingshot for what it is NEED a turbo kit? Absolutely not. For them, I believe it is more of a tool to get them out of their car and into the open air in an eye catching vehicle that they can spend time in and share with their significant other and friends. After driving the NA SS the other day, I can appreciate the NA builds and why people keep them that way. It's fun and quick around town and the power is very linear which would make it really fun and very predictable out on the twisty roads. You can still break the rear end loose and have a ton of fun in it. FunCycle even proved that you do not need to be boosted to be fast hanging with Bobby's white beast. I wouldn't take what Al said personally. I see your position but it wasn't meant to be an attack at the NA crowd.




  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Well the results are in. I started off doing another base line pull with the existing setup of the ZZP intake and exhaust package with the stock tune. Because the Slingshot was removed from the dyno after the initial testing, it was a new day with new temps and barometric readings, and was strapped down again, there’s no way the readings would be identical to before. Doing a NEW baseline insures accurate comparisons.


    We adjusted and tested everything we could. We added and removed ignition timing, played with cam timing, added and removed fuel, and what we ended up with was 2whp and 7ft-lbs tq above the stock tune. So all in all, including the mods and tuning, we picked up 8whp and 16ft-lbs tq over the bone stock base line pull. What I did notice when I drove it afterwards was an increase in throttle response, a broader power band, and better mid range. With our extensive back ground in the Ecotec market and having been tuning this engine for over a decade, we knew we were not going to make much of power increase. Tunes (when done safely) on this engine just do not produce dramatic results in NA trim. To make any type of large gains in power in a cost-effective manor, you have to add boost in one form or another.


    There is a tune out there that claims “gains of 11 rhp and 18 ft/lbs of torque on just the tune alone, with no other mods.” which is fairly close to where we came in at. BUT, that was with ALL the bolt ons available which is line with the gains we were getting when we were adding one mod at a time. The tune also claims, “If you pair the ECM tune with other engine mods such as Exhaust, Headers and a Cold Air Intake... this reflash can gain you up to 30 rwhp”. This is simply not true… at all. I do not know about you guys but that sounds a lot like the 1320 exhaust package that claims gains of 18hp with just swapping those parts in……..misinformation. I’ll be releasing the tune on its own soon, which will be very competitively priced, along with our Stage 1 NA Package which will include the Intake, Exhaust Package, and Tune.


  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from FunCycle

    Kyle D is there such a thing as a learning curve when a change is made? Like with Bob's tune, he said something like run the Sling 50 miles before really pushing it. Well I was going to do that and the rains came after about 5 miles. The next day was the day that I stayed on @rabtech's ass all day long. So it relearned the curve but it was wide open, petal to the metal so to say.

    If we are talking in regards to a tune, from what I have seen in this platform, no. Once you make a change in the tune, that's it. The change is made and you've "altered the brain" of the SS and it will now function according to the new parameters that you've set. It does not work in the sense that you upload a new parameter and the PCM has to slowly learn it. It has no ability of A.I. (artificial intelligence)


    When we flash a PCM for our turbo kit, IF Bob's statement were true, surely when you add boost to something that was not boosted previously, you can assume that there are a good deal of changes to that tune file. But we don't have to go out and let the PCM "learn" the new tune. When I take a SS out for the first time, I do take it easy and listen and monitor for KR. If all seems well at 1/4 throttle, I do a 1/2 and 3/4 throttle pull watching for KR. If all is good I do a full pull. We do this because you never know what fuel someone puts in their SS or where they got it from. I made a joke in a different post about people telling us they have 93 octane octane but we take the car out and its got KR through the roof and is running like its on 87. You go back and ask and they say oh yeah I use 87 or I got it from Jimmy discount shit gas station. This seriously happens ALL the TIME and we have to pump the tank and put in good fuel and like magic, all the KR goes away. Once I have verified that there is no KR I take it for a "spirited" run through our proving grounds..............in "Mexico" and make sure everything is happy and playing nicely together and make any adjustments to the tune at that point if necessary. Every engine runs a little different.


    However, in some platforms like the Cadillac ATS for example, we have a larger throttle body mod for that. It does NOT require updating the tune, but the PCM does have to relearn the throttle body position sensor since the new TB has a larger flap and opens at a different rate. But that happens automatically with a few key cycles. The car however runs no differently during that time.


    It's also similar to our turbo kit. You get your PCM back and typically you have a check engine light because the MAP sensor was unplugged but that goes away after you drive it a little bit.


    So yes there are some instances where there are things that the PCM will "relearn" something but if we are talking about the tune itself, no.


    My apologies for my long winded answer.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from wokka

    Agreed, it does sound very good. Can we assume that they did not adjust the sound any in post processing?

    Seriously? After I just posted all of this honest data showing that aftermarket parts, including ZZPs, do not make ridiculous power gains that other companies claim their parts make in the NA trim? What purpose would that possibly serve? I guess all I can say is that the owner has also seen the video so if it does not truly sound like that when he picks it up and he is unhappy, he can put me on blast here publicly.

    Eye Roll.gif

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from edwardaneal

    actually that does make me wonder - - - what percentage increase is needed before most people actually would notice?


    also looking at the dyno charts the big thing I notice is that with the exhaust / muffler system the power gain may not be huge, but it does look like it comes on much earlier and then stays up there longer - - from a "feel" point of view this could do more from a drive-ability point of view then just the max numbers would imply - - what do others here think about that?

    I did take it out for a short ride before and after the dyno. I did not remember it being so anemic bone stock. But I'm also used to my turbo setup. However, once we had all the parts on, while it's still not mind blowing fast, there was more throttle response and the power band felt broader. I think the owner will notice the gains once the tune is on there. The PCMs actually just showed up on my desk so I will be using one of the cores on this SS and hope to get to the dyno later today. It looks like we have someone that isn't going to make their appointment so if that happens I may get some tune numbers in today. If not, I will tomorrow.

  • The Truth About Natural Power - A Look At What Makes Power and How Much

    Quote from edwardaneal

    considering this I have a question for Kyle D - The muffler that you are selling with the header, is this the same muffler that you supply with your turbo kit? and if it is would your company be willing to offer your turbo kit without the muffler at a slightly reduced price to people who had already purchased your header / muffler system?


    It's the exact same muffler, To be honest, we have never discussed it. But I am sure it would be something we could accommodate. However, typically when you sit with someone and discuss options and you start laying out power numbers and price 99% of the people just go straight to the turbo kit. But yes I am sure that is something we could accommodate.


    Something you had mentioned in a previous post was about having PCM cores on hand. We will soon have that option to test it and see how it goes and if it is worth it. I have 2 PCMs on the way. As I stated before, it's a very large investment so at this time I have purchased 2 PCMs. Once I have them, I will have it listed as an option for the turbo kit but people will need to email me directly prior to purchase to see if I have any cores. If I do I can send one and if not, there will be the option to wait until I get a core back or just send your core to CBM for the initial tune.