I had the ZZP stage two kit on my slingshot for a year. 3 motors and more time fixing than driving my sling was a nightmare. I reached out to dave because I was not confident in ZZP’s ability to help me through emails. After switching tunes and some other sensors we still were unable to get my kit running right. Between dave’s knowledge and patience I figured I would give boosting this 2.4L one more shot before going back to stock. I got a new motor and switched to DDM’s turbo kit. Best decision I could have made. Upon opening the boxes I was over joyed at the quality of everything. Labeled packaging of parts and where they go, easy to follow instructions, and the parts themselves just look like you got what you paid for. I still have my ZZP kit so I was able to do a side by side comparison. Here is what I found. The turbos are significant different the size of them not so much but the connections most certainly are. The DDM turbo oil and coolant lines are threaded for the steel braided line to make a solid tight sealed connection. The ZZP kit connects oil and coolant to the turbo with rubber hoses and hose clamps (cheap). The intercoolers side by side have many differences. The welds on the DDM are clean and small. The DDM intercooler itself is taller and thicker than the ZZP. The ZZP welds are big and noticeable. The oil pan setup with the DDM pre tapped oil pain with an actual gasket makes install simple and clean. With the ZZP kit you have to drill your pan, take the metal filter out of the pan to clean it so no metal shavings are left inside. You have to buy RTV gasket maker. ZZP also uses a compression fittings to a rubber hose leading to the turbo. That rubber hose kinks easily. The DDM kit comes with an amazing tune that purrs like stock. ZZP’s tune always ran rich and had me going home smelling like raw fuel after a ride. Now to the intakes. DDM uses a large k&n off of the turbo to grab the cool air from the ground. ZZP uses a hard pipe off of the turbo that leads to a supplied housing in from of the engine on top of the radiator. Some may think ZZP’s looks better but you are only grabbing cool air that comes through the small opening where the middle headlights are. If you have a 17-19 you will need to cut a large part of the fan cover to allow the 3” intake pipe to route to the housing. I had to order a new one when i ordered the DDM kit. With the DDM kit the only modification you need to make is cutting the passenger side motor mount metal cover about 3/4 of an inch. Takes a minute with an angle grinder. Over all for a first timer the DDM kit will take you about 7-8 hrs to install if you get the optionals pre drilled oil pan (get it you will not be sorry). For me it took about 2 hrs since I have torn mine apart so many times and I had the DDM oil pan on when i put the new motor in already. The ZZP kit for a first timer will take you about 10-15hrs. If you are on the fence on the two different companies kits. I can assure you a few things you will get with DDM that you will not get with the ZZP kit. With DDM you will get hands down the best customer service in the business, top quality parts,an amazing tune and fantastic dependable performance. Also the employees at DDM are always friendly and courteous. No matter how many times a day you call lol. Thanks Angie! With other companies your customer service is usually only given via emails. I am finally able to enjoy my slingshot without worrying about if it is going to blow my motor again. I am Now a DDM customer for life!
If you are on the fence about what turbo kit to buy read this first!
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Nice write up, do you have any pictures you can share?
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Wanted to add to Xclaudio24 , Thank you Angie@DDMWorks Dave@DDMWorks for your kindness and support!
Dave@DDMWorks rabtech and All the slinginfo crew,
Please hammer me with professional and unprofessional opinions on this...
Not really a need to buy the Stage 3 Turbo kit unless planning to run E85 fuel or alternative race fuel. I think we can push the boost limits (14-16psig) of 93 Octane on Stage 2 Turbo kit, right? LOL
Looks like I'm stuck at 18.5 effective compression ratio with 14-16psig boost, 93 octane and 9.5 static compression ratio (ignoring dynamic compression ratio
).I'm currently researching:
- increasing rpm rev limits
https://zzperformance.com/coll…prings-titanium-retainers
- 160 deg thermostat
https://www.lingenfelter.com/m…tegory_Code=#.Xs7M12g3kuU
- oil radiator
http://www.ddmworks.com/DDMWor…aris-Slingshot_p_765.html
- water/meth injection
https://zzperformance.com/coll…er-methanol-injection-kit
- of course special tune
... to prevent pre-ignition/knock/detonation and get closer to 450-475 whp on 93 octane.
https://www.comeanddriveit.com/engine/detonation-and-knock
I used to think I had a Bachelor's Degree in reciprocating engine principles, come to find out I don't even have an Associate's Degree. I'll be contacting the professors after I catch up on the basics.
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Are we talking about boost levels on the stock block and internals (rods, pistons, ring end gaps etc) ecotec or on a Gen III block with forged internals? They're substantially different in the safe power levels you can run
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Assuming the engine is indestructible. Pre-ignition/knock/detonation start to occur around 15psig boost on 93 octane with good temperatures. Google “boost limits of 93 octane”.
Fuel will detonate without a spark plug. The determine factors are:
1. Temperature
2. Pressure
3. Fuel Octane
I prefer pump fuel to get more than 120 miles of range from a full gas tank and pump station availability. So #3 is held constant at 93 octane.14psig (detonation pressure limit) boost at 6,500rpm gets me about 375whp with good air and cylinder temperatures. To get 475whp at 6,500rpm with more boost, I will need to drastically reduce temperatures. This can be done with:
-water/meth injection
-great after-cooler
-oil cooler
-160 deg steady state coolant temp
There are several other ways to significantly increase HP, but here I am responding to the boost pressure limits of 93 octane in relation to detonation without a spark. -
The one significant issue on the ecotec engine even with all the "safety" mods in place, is the limitations on the stock connecting rods. The limitations on them appear to be about 75 horsepower per rod (300 hp total).Proper tuning, limiting heat, better fuel (I know you're keeping that a constant 93 octane) etc still puts the stress factors to work on a rod that is incapable to handle forces greater than the 300 hp without a major failure. Yes, you may get lucky and push that limit upwards 80 or 90 hp per, but that's about all you're going to safely get out of this engine
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Display MoreAssuming the engine is indestructible. Pre-ignition/knock/detonation start to occur around 15psig boost on 93 octane with good temperatures. Google “boost limits of 93 octane”.
Fuel will detonate without a spark plug. The determine factors are:
1. Temperature
2. Pressure
3. Fuel Octane
I prefer pump fuel to get more than 120 miles of range from a full gas tank and pump station availability. So #3 is held constant at 93 octane.14psig (detonation pressure limit) boost at 6,500rpm gets me about 375whp with good air and cylinder temperatures. To get 475whp at 6,500rpm with more boost, I will need to drastically reduce temperatures. This can be done with:
-water/meth injection
-great after-cooler
-oil cooler
-160 deg steady state coolant temp
There are several other ways to significantly increase HP, but here I am responding to the boost pressure limits of 93 octane in relation to detonation without a spark.15psi of boost pressure at the intake manifold is not always going to be the limit you can run on 93 octane, the knock threshold is going to be dependent on a lot of factors, boost pressure is not the sole factor. There are plenty of Ecotec's running around on higher pressures than that on 93 octane out there.
There are a couple other factors right off that I can think of that contributes to pre-ignition also -
- The air/fuel ratio
- How homogenous the mixture is in the cylinder (there can be pockets of different air/fuel mixtures within the cylinder)
- Carbon deposits on exhaust valves
- Too far advanced timing
- Spark plugs in the wrong heat range
I am sure there are some others, that is just off the top of my head.
Water/Meth is one of our favorites to run here on high boost setups. It does a couple good things compared to E85. With the water/meth spraying you keep the engine overall much cleaner. Also, if you run out of water/meth, you can still just keep driving (staying in low boost where water/meth is not needed) on 93 octane. If you are traveling you can typically find higher octane gas, but E85 is sometimes hard to find when traveling. For all out race cars E85+ can be fun, but for anyone that drives their vehicle on a daily basis, 93 octane with water/meth has been more preferred by our customers.
Hope that helps,
Dave
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Dave,
Have you installed these type of set-ups Slings with one of your built engines? Would it be beneficial for the set-up we have been discussing?
Shane -
Dave,
Have you installed these type of set-ups Slings with one of your built engines? Would it be beneficial for the set-up we have been discussing?
ShaneShane,
We have installed a lot of the water/meth setups now on Slingshots with and without our engines. We could add something like that on your build, you might talk with MACAWS, he had a hahn kit and our tune and injectors and was making really good power, low 400's on just pump gas.
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Dave,
Have you installed these type of set-ups Slings with one of your built engines? Would it be beneficial for the set-up we have been discussing?
ShaneShane
The DDM built motor and the stage 2 kit will deliver more power than you can use on straight up 93 octane pump gas. If this is the direction you are headed I would do the motor and turbo first. You will not be disappointed. Working with Dave@DDMWorks we have tried several different combinations and this is by far the best / smoothest and fastest spooling of everything we tried.
For daily driving you will love it. If you feel the need for even more power you can add a Haltech to expand tuning options or the water/meth.
If you you have more questions feel free to PM me.
Welcome to the boosted club
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Display MoreShane
The DDM built motor and the stage 2 kit will deliver more power than you can use on straight up 93 octane pump gas. If this is the direction you are headed I would do the motor and turbo first. You will not be disappointed. Working with Dave@DDMWorks we have tried several different combinations and this is by far the best / smoothest and fastest spooling of everything we tried.
For daily driving you will love it. If you feel the need for even more power you can add a Haltech to expand tuning options or the water/meth.
If you you have more questions feel free to PM me.
Welcome to the boosted club
That's probably going to be faster than waiting another year for the parts he already paid for to arrive
Sorry Shane, but we both know the reasons
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Dave@DDMWorks MACAWS and the Sling Crew,
Any recommendations on an Intake Manifold for the Water/Meth injection port?
Thank you for shipping out the Track Clutch. Can't wait the to smoke rubber off this third wheel, before the DF Project 324 Kit comes in.
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That's probably going to be faster than waiting another year for the parts he already paid for to arrive
Sorry Shane, but we both know the reasons
Oh believe me I know and It has only been 1 year 4 months now since I purchased and still do not have everything with no response on when it will arrive!
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Oh believe me I know and It has only been 1 year 4 months now since I purchased and still do not have everything with no response on when it will arrive!
Shoot me a message with what you are waiting on, I have a full kit here still and a couple partials and might be able to help out to get you going.
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This thread is almost tempting enough for me to jump into. I just need to go out and spool my turbo up a few times to get pumped up....
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Let me post one picture that really cant be argued with. I mean some people could argure with it but they would argue with a fence post most likely..
Look over these values...... and she was just getting started......
When i first bought my slinghot i said i wanted it so wicked that i could scare myself with the power. I have a machine now that I can sneak up on someone in a parking lot and nearly pull their shoes off with my front spoiler. And minutes later be at 150+mph. And I never worry about the drive train.
The only failure i have ever had was when a oil squirter under a piston broke off.. Shit goes bad quick on a mile airstrip run doing 152mph and no oil being squirted onto the bottom of a piston. That is just shit for luck.....
By the way.... i run 93 octane and i dont have the time or energy to fill a water meth tank.
The sound we all love turbos to make is not all a bad thing. Some have asked me if my Blow off valve is not working. The noise is actually because i dont lift all the way off the gas. So the blow off valve never has time to open and release all the pressure. Its not backing that much air against the turbine blades because i get right back into the throttle ..
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i meant to let everyone know that i will be in Houston at the Sling Experience. I will be burning several rear tires off and letting people take a ride with me if they want..
More info on that in another thread that will be posted in a couple weeks.
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I’ll be there! Any of the Texans joining? wokka and others, I think there is a few Houstonias here ☝️
Dave@DDMWorks I saw you on the Houston sponsor list. You swinging by in late June?
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You gus are going to make me drag my ass all the way to Texas aren't ya!
