Do we really need sporting events

Quote from Bigdog

before NAFTA And the 401ks in the Early 70s....I don’t remember upper management people making a whole lot more than the worker bees...Then the companies started corporate takeovers just to raid the pension funds.....and companies started to claim bankruptcy To avoid paying out pensions.....they stole the money........remember the term corporate raiders? Slime balls ....using greed to become rich...while putting thousands of people out of work and with no pension. Is that the definition of capitalism?

The government came up with the plan to suck everyone into the 401k scheme. Stocks became the fuel to fund the 401Ks ....All this made the CEOS Wealthy From corporate greed...Screwing blue collar people out of their hard earned pensions became very profitable for them. Not only did the workers get screwed out of their pensions....they made them part of the scheme by making everyone a stock owner....So now they unwittingly became part of the corporate greed cycle....blue collar people now have to root for it so they can get some money to try to retire on...it’s a vicious circle with no escape. I call it a Ponzi scheme....

Workers wages stagnated....benefits dried up. Healthcare was stripped away...pensions were gone.

Capitalism is many times fueled by corruption and greed.......I’m not in favor of socialism in any way shape of form...But there is something fundamentally wrong with the way it is now. the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer....CEOs are constantly asking for less workers for less pay...and as a reward For cutting Someone’s job and someone’s pay they get a percentage of the savings as a bonus...let’s call it blood money....screwing people out of a decent living...to line their pockets....the definition of capitalism has changed....

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I think you dont really understand the history of pensions - - this is what I do for a living and the history is very interesting.

Employer sponsored and funded pensions have always been optional - government has never required them to be offered to employees. The entire concept of the Employer funded pension was started by the railroads as a tool to hire the best workers and to retain them until they reached full retirement age - - read that again, its important - - It was a gift intended to get the best workers and to keep them from going to other jobs or quitting early.

Now over the years a combination of things happened and its way to much to get into here but in a nut shell - - workers unions and and employees started crying they didnt think it was fair that if they left early they forfeited their "gift" and over the years they lobbied government and they complained and then the government started passing laws - these laws did not change the fact that offering a pension was optional but they started requiring vesting schedules that made worker entitled to the gift before they actually got to retirement age - - over the years these schedules have gotten shorter and shorter to the point where now the most common vesting schedule is a 6 year graded schedule where after only 2 years of work you are entitled to 20% of the benefit going up another 20 % each year there after until full vesting a at 6 years - - - These government rules lobbied for by unions have change everything - what was once a tool voluntarily offered by and paid for entirely by the employer designed to attract and retain the best workers no longer did what it was supposed to do - after only 6 years employees could get the present value of their entire benefit and run off and work for someone else

This has had the effect of killing employer funded pensions they were never required and the unions and government made them not work as they were intended - they no longer can be a gift used to attract the best and keep them - because workers can run off with it after only 6 or so years

as such employers really had no choice - thy either simply stopped offering any retirement plan - or they replaced their employer funded plan with a 401(k) or a 403(b) for government workers and let the employees themselves pay for their own retirement - - - thanks almost entirely to unions wanting their workers not to have to actually stick around to get the gift of an employer funded plan they pushed so hard that the gift went away and was replaced with an empty bank account that the employee can put a part of their own pay check in with pre tax dollars - - - - if the employer is nice they might provide a matching contribution - but this is 100% optional - - - unions and some other lesser things killed the large employer funded defined benefit pension plans

Now to address something else you say about "corporate raiders" stealing pension plans - - this is true, bit probably not in the way you think. In a defined benefit pension plan as the name implies the benefit an employee will get is defined in the legal document that sets out the plan this benefit has been guaranteed by the government for a very long time, long before these corporate raiders became an issue. because this benefit is legally guaranteed the money to the workers and what they would get at retirement was never "raided" or taken from the workers - what actually happened is that some corporations used these plans to put in huge amounts of extra money, much more than was required to provide the promised benefits they did this because employer contributions to pension plans are exempt from taxes - in other words the corporations used the plan as a tax shelter hiding money that never really was needed to fund the plans - - -- this extra money in the plans was what the corporate raiders saw and were going after - - all of the corporate raiding never took any of the money required to provide the benefits and even if it did the benefits were still legally required and the employer would have to come up with the money - - there are some small exceptions (professional service corporations like doctors), but most Defined Benefit Plans are even insured by a government entity called the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) that requires employers to pay a premium and provides a government guarantee of benefits even if the corporation goes under and declares bankruptcy - so like I said above "corporate raiders" did not take employee benefits away from the workers - they couldn't

so basically in the end large corporation funded Defined Benefit Pension Plans were almost entirely made extinct by Union employee greed - - by using the government to force employers to give them early access to something the employer promised them at retirement the value of the employer offering that gift went away, it no longer worked as an incentive to keep the best workers and if the workers were not going to stay then why offer the gift?

Yep employee funded plans are the gift the Unions brought into existence - thanks to them and the greed of the workers that didnt want to have to actually stick around to get their retirement - workers now get to pay for their own retirement from their own pay checks and if their employer is nice they might agree to giving a match, but no guarantee

Whats really sad is most of the Unions members actually are not informed enough about what really happened and actually think the Employer is the bad guy which is simply not true - Unions / Government regulations caused the demise of the Defined Benefit Pension Plan for all but the smallest employers by making them no longer function as the tool they were always intended to be attracting and retaining the best workers.

Yep - if you work for a big corporation and they closed down their defined benefit pension plan and replaced it with a 401(k) - - - you can thank the unions for that - even if you are not a union shop it was the unions and their lobbing that pushed the government regulations that killed you plan

and if you think this is BS that I just read some place or on the net you would be wrong

My father's father was one of the earliest people in the insurance/retirement business and my father was one of the first government licensed pension actuaries specializing in this business ,he was actually involved in helping craft the legislation that became known as ERISA - The Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 - He actually walked out and refused to participate in the final version of this - he knew and he predicted what would happen and even though he agreed with much of the law he also knew it would kill the defined benefit plan and wanted nothing to do with it - - up until his death he always cringed any time he heard his name mentioned as him having anything to do with ERISA

Edit - I will add that I am sure some union employees benefited very early on by getting to get their gift early and possibly retiring early on employer money, but they did so by being short sighted and at the expense of all workers after them who no longer have their employer paying for their retirement - they, the unions, did this, not some evil corporation

Edward Neal is 100% correct. I have been involved with hostile takeovers of companies that were ripe for picking. What got those companies there? Inevitably one of 2 things - poor management or workforce benefits became unsustainable. As I have always said there is a delicate balance between worker and management and any time one takes too much advantage over the other disaster usually follows with a bigger dog picking the bones clean.

PS Edward Neal - really well put together post - very informative - even this ole dog learned a little something

need to add this

To anyone who thinks I posted my retirement plan information post above because it might have negatively impacted my business or income, actually the exact opposite it true - 401(k) plans and other individual account plans who's existence has skyrocketed due to the unions killing of Defined Benefit Pension Plans has been a boon to the Third Party Administration business - the participant each having their own little self funded accounts has require much more administration work and keeping them in compliance with all of the legal requirements has caused our industry to grow exponentially - - - hell if it were only about me and my income I should be thanking the unions and employee greed for helping me to support my family

I personally am growing very weary of the term “corporate greed”. While I believe that monopoly laws are much needed and probably not applied as much as they should be big corporations using their clout to increase profits for shareholders is fair game. These corporate titans make enormous amounts of money to steer multi national business interests with their jobs on the line with the Board of Directors (which also can be replaced) if they do not perform. Why not hire a person fresh out of college with a Masters Degree in business or a long time employee with not the adequate education and background for a fraction of the money and divide the remainder up among employees?? Certainly make the workers happy. Dems and left learners would be beside themselves screaming “we have been heard!!” Then the rookie makes a few bad calls from lack of experience causing the stock to fall off a cliff causing huge layoffs. Then they will be screaming “poor management”. Don’t most employees do their best in hopes of promotion and raises. Is that “worker greed”?? That CEO has hit the ceiling - no more promotions - only down from there - all he can do is strive to increase corporate profits at any means necessary to command that huge salary. Does that make them greedy or just competitive doing the best job that they can? Now I’m probably going to get blasted here because there are examples where my analysis does not fit well but “greed” just rubs me the wrong way!!

Quote from Bill Martin

I personally am growing very weary of the term “corporate greed”. While I believe that monopoly laws are much needed and probably not applied as much as they should be big corporations using their clout to increase profits for shareholders is fair game. These corporate titans make enormous amounts of money to steer multi national business interests with their jobs on the line with the Board of Directors (which also can be replaced) if they do not perform. Why not hire a person fresh out of college with a Masters Degree in business or a long time employee with not the adequate education and background for a fraction of the money and divide the remainder up among employees?? Certainly make the workers happy. Dems and left learners would be beside themselves screaming “we have been heard!!” Then the rookie makes a few bad calls from lack of experience causing the stock to fall off a cliff causing huge layoffs. Then they will be screaming “poor management”. Don’t most employees do their best in hopes of promotion and raises. Is that “worker greed”?? That CEO has hit the ceiling - no more promotions - only down from there - all he can do is strive to increase corporate profits at any means necessary to command that huge salary. Does that make them greedy or just competitive doing the best job that they can? Now I’m probably going to get blasted here because there are examples where my analysis does not fit well but “greed” just rubs me the wrong way!!

I agree - there seems to be a double standard where if higher up corporate employees want more its "greed" where as if lower down employees want more they "deserve" it

there also seems to be this ridiculous view that wealth is fixed and if someone else gets more then it must mean they took it from others - it is a tool the socialists use to manipulate the uneducated masses into believing that the rich are evil and only are rich because they took it from them - - it false narrative that is based on a lie used to control the masses and turn them into followers

fact is new wealth is created constantly and it doesn't mean that someone else got poorer or is a victim. The money supply is not some giant pie where if I get a bigger piece it leaves less for others - that is just the lie used to control fools and divide people so that they can be controlled - as BigDog might say - its a conspiracy

Quote from Edward Neal

I agree - there seems to be a double standard where if higher up corporate employees want more its "greed" where as if lower down employees want more they "deserve" it

there also seems to be this ridiculous view that wealth is fixed and if some else gets more then it must mean they took it from others - it is a tool the socialists use to manipulate the uneducated masses into believing that the rich are evil and only are rich because they took it from them - - it false narrative that is based on a lie used to control the masses and turn them into followers

fact is new wealth is created constantly and it doesn't mean that someone else got poorer or is a victim. The money supply is not some giant pie where if I get a bigger piece it leaves less for others - that is just the lie used to control fools and divide people so that they can be controlled - as BigDog might say - its a conspiracy

Pretty much says it all right there doesn’t it ??

I like corporate greed. Those greedy people buy vacation homes that are maintained by blue collar workers. Those greedy people buy ovens and fridges built by and delivered by blue collar workers. They buy several expensive automobiles built by and delivered by blue collar workers. On and on....

Quote from Bikerndiver

I like corporate greed. Those greedy people buy vacation homes that are maintained by blue collar workers. Those greedy people buy ovens and fridges built by and delivered by blue collar workers. They buy several expensive automobiles built by and delivered by blue collar workers. On and on....

I like both groups...with the 'blue collar' guys working I get to do a little painting for them (gas for Slingshot) and the greedy ones have enough painting for me to do so I can take a couple of vacations with the Slingshot. All is good at this point...

Bigdog - you do not mention anything at all about union corruption - corruption is possible on both sides of the ball creating havoc!!

Quote from Bigdog

way too much info in these last several posts....Wow...

i take exception to the worker greed statement for one big reason....in the old days, before corporate greed....that Term will not go away...it was every workers dream to work hard to gain a promotion to make more money. That was the Companies reward for your loyalty and hard work..

But now I’ve seen it with many people I know,....the more money you make puts a bigger target on your forehead to be let go. In a money saving move...I still say the upper management And or the bean counters or both ....get a percent bonus for every dollar they Can save...The easiest way for them to show a cost reduction is to get rid of people...

my recommendation now to anybody that wants to keep their job is to not be the bottom employee, but you don’t want to be the highest paid one either because you are the biggest easiest target...look I just saved the company $100,000 I got rid of that guy making the most money......I tell people stay in the middle and not attract attention to yourself....

Because today more than ever you are just a number....and as mentioned ....they can replace them with a kid fresh out of college for 1/4 of your salary....besides the corporate greeders know that kid will take any job because he has so much college debt...I saw it happen to bosses at work many times....

also many companies did declare bankruptcy to get out of their pension obligations which did screw many workers....many companies did it because the majority of workers were getting close to 30 years......anything under 30 years seniority the pension payment was much lower than if you had the 30 year mark. After so many companies did that the government stepped in the the pension guarantee fund....which is probably broke right now......but the government would guarantee to pay workers half of their pension if they got screwed by their company....

blue collar workers really did get screwed out of millions of pension dollars....I worked with guys that came from other jobs that were let go with 27-28-29 years service....so they had to get paid a smaller pension.....and they had to wait until they reached 65...

As to the unions and vested pensions.....when I got hired I had to stay 10 years to vest my pension.....I could have gone to work for another company .....but you were not able to collect any of it until you reached 65 years old...so just saying we wanted to take our pensions after 6 years.....doesn’t mean you collected on it right away.....It meant you had 6-10 years worth of Guaranteed pension time....and actually the Pension money still would have to stay with that employer.....and they would pay you when you turned 65...and it was set up so that it wasn’t a whole lot of money.....it was set up to increase with more service years...

Our union negotiated a 30 year and out pension ....once I had 30 years seniority I could retire and start collecting my Monthly pension money...

and as far as the unions......Andrew Carnegie single handedly was responsible for unions being created....he wanted to have “paid slaves” working for him.....The workers demanded higher wages, better working conditions, pensions and other things.....just remember he never poured one ingot full of steel...

I was told this story by an old timer at my mill.....it was before unions and at the beginning of every shift....unemployed men would line up at the gates where bosses would come out to hand pick guys they needed to fill the shift in their department ....If these guys didn’t get picked they came back 8 hours later....in order to get picked.....this guy brought a bag of potatoes for the boss or this guy had a bottle of whiskey....or this guy had his old lady under his arm......Desperate times Called for desperate measures..... He went to work and so did the boss...

I don’t begrudge anybody being rich ....a poor man never signed anyone’s pay check...but use mike Bloomberg as an example...worth $65 billion...... how many billions does one guy need? I’ve been an employer and I was always ok with paying people for the money they helped me make....I’m not rich...but I want loyalty, I wanted dependability, I wanted quality work...those things are worth money...

you’re learning Bill....everything is a conspiracy....this virus deal with China is a perfect example....They conspired to lie to the world....while they gathered up all the PPE they could get...it cost The world trillions Of dollars and thousands of Innocent lives.....Wrecked the world economy....millions of jobs lost.....thousands of businesses lost...

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yep your union got you a great early pension - but they got it at the expense of all the workers after you than now only get a 401(k) - - - - corporations did not kill the Defined Benefit Plan - - that was dont by Unions making them so expensive no employer can afford them

So I am very happy for you - you were one of the few that was at the top of the pyramid - I just feel sorry for all of those that came after you who will never get what you got.

Yep, I dont care if you like it or not - its a fact that the GREEDY UNIONS and GREEDY UNION EMPLOYEES ruined it for everyone - - - between my fathers father, my father, and myself we have over 100 years in the retirement planning and plan design business and we have watched it happen and my father actually sat in on the design of the legislation that was the beginning of the death - - no speculation involved, no guessing, no feelings or we think - - - we know!!!

Quote from Bill Martin

Bigdog - you do not mention anything at all about union corruption - corruption is possible on both sides of the ball creating havoc!!

considering the involvement of the mafia and union racketeering and extortion that still exists to this day in unions I do find it interesting that Bigdog seems to think that its the Corporations that are evil

I am also surprised at Bigdogs outspoken support for the Unions when for all practical purposes thay have been a huge ATM for the Democrat party for many many years - - I guess its easy to overlook just so long has he got what he wanted - - - of course this assumes he isnt actually a closet Democrat - - - -

Pro Trump & Pro Union - - - - just dont see how that works???

There's a lot going on here, when I thought this place was about sports. Oh well.

Anyway..........................................................

How bout' dem COWBOYS!!!!

(Actually, I hate the Cowboys!!)

GO PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from Bill Martin

Well of course - ya gotta have gas money to give all the pretty girls a ride - it’s entertainment AND a public service

Isn’t that a tax deduction?.

JUST SAYIN

Quote from Bigdog

I reported it in previous posts that I got screwed by the company and union equally.....they are as corrupt as they come.....Their main interest was making sure they kept their jobs....first and foremost...they made back room deals....let’s call it quid pro quo...

now look at this and tell me number one, it’s the right thing to do at a time like this or ever
number two, it’s not corporate greed

And especially when they are still charging 29% interest on credit cards....

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/…protection-124109163.html

Now I see why Ruth Crist steakhouse got their money in 4 days...the bank took a big fee....

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if you are paying 29% interest on a credit card did you not apply for that credit and agree to those terms? Are you aware of all the laws on the books to prevent predatory lending? High interest rates are levied by lenders who make high risk loans. Granted many are in dire financial straits pushing them into high credit card debt or people living above their means. You want low to interest rates - pass a law no loans with a FICO under 800. Again the market sets the rate for small business and consumer alike - the better the credit the better the rate.

Go Tampa Bay