Impeachment, let your Senator Know

Quote from Bill Martin

I think the most important question of all is being missed in this impeachment. IF it were a Democrat President that had done the EXACT same thing Trump did do you believe the Republicans would sink this low?? It is my belief that many Republicans found Obama just as distasteful as Democrats do Trump - conservatives are just not cry babies!!

How soon you forget how crybaby adjacent your beloved Republicans were. You need to peek outside your party blinders brother.

https://time.com/3033757/poll-obama-impeached-third/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w…democrats-1466865%3famp=1

Many Republicans wanted Obama impeached for "not being a U.S. born citizen". As if Hillary and all the Dems wouldn't try to prove that, if it were true, to beat him. As if the Republicans wouldn't have tried to prove it, if it were true, to beat him. It takes a "special" person to believe none of those career politicians would quickly end Obama's chances IF IT WERE TRUE. There is one VERY SPECIAL person that believed that illogical nonsense until the day he replaced Obama. Trump: "Der Dar der , they need to impeach Obama. I'll give one million dollars to any charity he wants if he shows us his real birth certificate". Der Dar der".

Is that the "this low" you speak of, or is "this low" not as low and crybabyish as Trump's lows?

I heard a new rumor attributed to having originated within the White House that claimed Hillary deliberately lost the election just so the Dems could impeach Trump!

A slightly different topic, but related to the discord in American politics today. I just came across this article in an email from Rolling Stone. It looks at the differences between the Internet trolls we all seem to find annoying on various forums and the professional trolls who are trying to influence how Americans think about different issues to split us apart.

https://www.rollingstone.com/p…erference-twitter-916482/

Never being one to shy away from a debate please allow me to retort... WOLF - I can THINK and SAY that I want to rob Ft Knox but until I act upon that thought or utterance I have committed no offense. Was I in a coma and miss the Republicans instituting impeachment against Obama?? Fringe partisans are always going to want an opposing party President impeached for idiotic reasons. I did not believe Clinton should have been impeached over a blow job - sadly Clinton chose to perjure himself. The Republicans were just plain wrong in that pursuit. They were penalized at the voting booth and I believe learned their lesson justifying my statement never to make that mistake again - hence being cry babies. It is my belief that once the Democrats get slapped at the voting booth both parties will forever forget filing frivolous impeachment proceedings against a sitting US President.

BKL - I strongly disagree with you that Trump “clearly broke the law”. Firstly, the presumption of innocence has been ignored when it comes to Trump. Democrats have plainly stated they want Trump to prove his innocence. Is a sitting President not afforded the same legal rights as an MS 13 gang member?? You or I nor anybody else knows what was in Trump’s mind or his intent in the Ukraine phone call. We know the Ukrainian President said their was no pressure and Trump said he did not want a quid pro cup - those are facts. The GAO is just another “opinion”. Do you want to live in a country that whereby you can be convicted by opinion - not fact ??? I don’t think so.

In summation I believe that this is the worst display of partisan politics ever inflicted on the American people. What we are witnessing is a fight for this country’s soul. Trump has brought to the surface the underlying divide in this country between liberal and conservative ideology. BOTH sides realize this is a fight to the death (politically speaking) and no matter how it goes in this impeachment proceeding and the November election I can see no way this political divide can be bridged. If we throw away judicial precedents and go down the road of impeachment of a President every time we have a Rep or Dem House vs an opposing President our democracy is doomed.

@BillMartin, I pretty much agree with your comments addressed to WOLF.

I also admit that I have based my opinion on the evidence I have heard and you are correct in that Trump, like anyone accused of a crime, deserves the right to call witnesses in his defense. I also believe in the powers of the Executive Branch to withhold at least parts of "internal operations/Executive Privilege," yet I also believe that if someone has nothing to hide, they will cooperate and not attempt to block all cooperation with investigators. Trump has basically refused to allow any of his aides to testify, even when such testimony could have a significant impact on how the investigation is viewed by each party and the public.

The President of Ukraine is in a difficult position in that he needs the very aid it looks like Trump was withholding and may very well have felt compelled to say what he probably believed Trump wanted him to say, especially when pressed to make a statement while sitting directly across from Trump. Several of the witnesses who have testified have confirmed their belief that a quid pro quo situation had taken place.

As far as the current state of impeachment, I believe the Democrats had some evidence on which to base the impeachment charges, but I also believe the impeachment vote should not have been held until the courts determined how much power Trump should have to keep his current and/or former aides from testifying. I firmly believe additional testimony would have provided a clearer basis on how to proceed or drop the impeachment process.

I agree that if either side feels they can impeach at the drop of a hat, that does not bode well for our Nation. Reestablishing bipartisan governance is desperately needed, but that will be difficult. Mitch McConnell's unprecedented treatment of the Merrick Garland nomination and his subsequent changing of how the "rules" he made up about leaving any Supreme Court nomination in the last year of a presidency to the administration winning the next election certainly haven't promoted a sense of bipartisanship. I also believe that there has been a wing of the Republican party who have never accepted any legitimacy to either Clinton or Obama's elections (evidenced by Clinton's impeachment and Republican determination to thwart just about all Obama initiatives and limit him to one term) and that many Democrats also feel the same way about G. W. Bush's election in 2000 following the intervention of the US Supreme Court in how Florida conducted its recount, a process normally controlled by the States.

All of these things show some problems in our system and how it is currently working or not for all of us. In order to address these problems, we are going to need a return to bipartisan governance where each side wins some, but not all of their “wants.” Democrats, having regained control of the House, have used their position to oppose the many policies they have disagreements with the current administration although I do not believe they have resisted all administration actions to the same degree the Republicans reacted to Obama. We certainly can’t continue having subsequent administrations doing everything in their power to eliminate everything accomplished by the previous administration. Such a situation can only result in continuous turmoil and disruption to our society

The people, hopefully through the election process, will let the Democrats know if they have overstepped in impeaching Trump. Time will tell.

FWIW, I was first eligible to vote in 1972 and I voted for Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and George H. W. Bush. I never cared for Ronald Reagan nor George W. Bush. I typically have voted split tickets, picking the candidates I preferred, not just a political party. If I were still a Republican, I would have been a Never Trumper. I grew up with a Republican Party that pretty much wanted little government with minimal interference in your wallet and in your bedroom. I strongly believe the Democrats should have realized how strongly Republicans dislike anything associated with the Clintons and that the easiest way for Trump to win again is for the Democrats to nominate someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, either of which would serve as the perfect foil to motivate the Republican base. Trump did an excellent job of working the Electoral College system to win in 2016, although I get tired of him falsely proclaiming he won the majority of the votes.

I also try to avoid these types of discussions since they are all too often emotionally loaded, regardless of which side one may fall.

Quote from Bill Martin

Never being one to shy away from a debate please allow me to retort... WOLF - I can THINK and SAY that I want to rob Ft Knox but until I act upon that thought or utterance I have committed no offense. Was I in a coma and miss the Republicans instituting impeachment against Obama?? Fringe partisans are always going to want an opposing party President impeached for idiotic reasons. I did not believe Clinton should have been impeached over a blow job - sadly Clinton chose to perjure himself. The Republicans were just plain wrong in that pursuit. They were penalized at the voting booth and I believe learned their lesson justifying my statement never to make that mistake again - hence being cry babies. It is my belief that once the Democrats get slapped at the voting booth both parties will forever forget filing frivolous impeachment proceedings against a sitting US President.

BKL - I strongly disagree with you that Trump “clearly broke the law”. Firstly, the presumption of innocence has been ignored when it comes to Trump. Democrats have plainly stated they want Trump to prove his innocence. Is a sitting President not afforded the same legal rights as an MS 13 gang member?? You or I nor anybody else knows what was in Trump’s mind or his intent in the Ukraine phone call. We know the Ukrainian President said their was no pressure and Trump said he did not want a quid pro cup - those are facts. The GAO is just another “opinion”. Do you want to live in a country that whereby you can be convicted by opinion - not fact ??? I don’t think so.

In summation I believe that this is the worst display of partisan politics ever inflicted on the American people. What we are witnessing is a fight for this country’s soul. Trump has brought to the surface the underlying divide in this country between liberal and conservative ideology. BOTH sides realize this is a fight to the death (politically speaking) and no matter how it goes in this impeachment proceeding and the November election I can see no way this political divide can be bridged. If we throw away judicial precedents and go down the road of impeachment of a President every time we have a Rep or Dem House vs an opposing President our democracy is doomed.

I have to agree with Mr. Martin on that one. Hell, there's a LOT of women that I would LOVE to have carnal knowledge of, but never acted on those thoughts. Does that make me unfaithful? I hope I don't get lumped into the same boat as Jimmy Carter when he said he had "lust in his heart and was a sinner because of it"

Quote from BKL

@BillMartin, I pretty much agree with your comments addressed to WOLF.

I also admit that I have based my opinion on the evidence I have heard and you are correct in that Trump, like anyone accused of a crime, deserves the right to call witnesses in his defense. I also believe in the powers of the Executive Branch to withhold at least parts of "internal operations/Executive Privilege," yet I also believe that if someone has nothing to hide, they will cooperate and not attempt to block all cooperation with investigators. Trump has basically refused to allow any of his aides to testify, even when such testimony could have a significant impact on how the investigation is viewed by each party and the public.

The President of Ukraine is in a difficult position in that he needs the very aid it looks like Trump was withholding and may very well have felt compelled to say what he probably believed Trump wanted him to say, especially when pressed to make a statement while sitting directly across from Trump. Several of the witnesses who have testified have confirmed their belief that a quid pro quo situation had taken place.

As far as the current state of impeachment, I believe the Democrats had some evidence on which to base the impeachment charges, but I also believe the impeachment vote should not have been held until the courts determined how much power Trump should have to keep his current and/or former aides from testifying. I firmly believe additional testimony would have provided a clearer basis on how to proceed or drop the impeachment process.

I agree that if either side feels they can impeach at the drop of a hat, that does not bode well for our Nation. Reestablishing bipartisan governance is desperately needed, but that will be difficult. Mitch McConnell's unprecedented treatment of the Merrick Garland nomination and his subsequent changing of how the "rules" he made up about leaving any Supreme Court nomination in the last year of a presidency to the administration winning the next election certainly haven't promoted a sense of bipartisanship. I also believe that there has been a wing of the Republican party who have never accepted any legitimacy to either Clinton or Obama's elections (evidenced by Clinton's impeachment and Republican determination to thwart just about all Obama initiatives and limit him to one term) and that many Democrats also feel the same way about G. W. Bush's election in 2000 following the intervention of the US Supreme Court in how Florida conducted its recount, a process normally controlled by the States.

All of these things show some problems in our system and how it is currently working or not for all of us. In order to address these problems, we are going to need a return to bipartisan governance where each side wins some, but not all of their “wants.” Democrats, having regained control of the House, have used their position to oppose the many policies they have disagreements with the current administration although I do not believe they have resisted all administration actions to the same degree the Republicans reacted to Obama. We certainly can’t continue having subsequent administrations doing everything in their power to eliminate everything accomplished by the previous administration. Such a situation can only result in continuous turmoil and disruption to our society

The people, hopefully through the election process, will let the Democrats know if they have overstepped in impeaching Trump. Time will tell.

FWIW, I was first eligible to vote in 1972 and I voted for Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and George H. W. Bush. I never cared for Ronald Reagan nor George W. Bush. I typically have voted split tickets, picking the candidates I preferred, not just a political party. If I were still a Republican, I would have been a Never Trumper. I grew up with a Republican Party that pretty much wanted little government with minimal interference in your wallet and in your bedroom. I strongly believe the Democrats should have realized how strongly Republicans dislike anything associated with the Clintons and that the easiest way for Trump to win again is for the Democrats to nominate someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, either of which would serve as the perfect foil to motivate the Republican base. Trump did an excellent job of working the Electoral College system to win in 2016, although I get tried of him falsely proclaiming he won the majority of the votes.

I also try to avoid these types of discussions since they are all too often emotionally loaded, regardless of which side one may fall.

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I appreciate your opinion and agree with much of what you said. I believe it is a slippery slope compelling anyone with direct access to the President to testify ignoring and thusly diminishing executive privilege. No matter what party is in office the President should not have anyone hearing one side of a phone call becoming a whistleblower for partisan reasons. Both sides have pulled outrageous “tricks” to the detriment of the political system. I agree that Merrick Garland was treated poorly by the Republicans - so what do the Democrats do - they sink even lower on the Bret Kavanaugh nomination. I’ll probably get beat up for this but I thought Bill Clinton was a pretty good President. Hillary on the other hand should be strung up on a powerline for the buzzards to eat - scratch that - buzzards do have standards. McConnel was wrong on Garland but remember Pelosi’s famous quote “we have to pass the bill so we can find out what’s in it” - that should have been her last statement in public office. The Obama birthplace thing was another partisan ridiculous pursuit. I fundamentally disagreed with Obama’s policies and when he got his “pen and phone” - picked HRC for Secretary of State - having far worse scandals than the Trump administration he went on my trash pile. This brings me to Trump. Does he say, tweet, do things I wish he wouldn’t do — YES!! On the other hand he has done EXACTLY what he said he was gonna do if he was elected. I get it that many people are turned off by him - I was in New York several months ago and most are dicks IMO 😂. But just because you do not like his policies or style is not a reason to impeach a President - that is what the voting booth is for. Lastly - if Trump committed a crime which every Democrat and their pundits decry - why was their no violation of law in the Democrats Articles of Impeachment??? One thing for sure - we agree - Biden, Sanders, Warren, Bloomberg ain’t gonna do nothing to bring this country together and if anything will bring the right out in force. Trump brings out the same furor in the left. No matter who wins in November I see a lot of turmoil on the horizon. That is why I am sticking with the devil I know - Trump!!

Quote from Edward Neal

I like the title of this thread “let your Senator Know” I live in California and I am pretty sure that “my” Senators don’t live here and the ones that do have most likely already made up their minds

Sent from my iPhone using Polaris Slingshot Info

I also feel the Senators from Illinois will not be going in with a clear mind.

Quote from Bill Martin

I appreciate your opinion and agree with much of what you said. I believe it is a slippery slope compelling anyone with direct access to the President to testify ignoring and thusly diminishing executive privilege. No matter what party is in office the President should not have anyone hearing one side of a phone call becoming a whistleblower for partisan reasons. Both sides have pulled outrageous “tricks” to the detriment of the political system. I agree that Merrick Garland was treated poorly by the Republicans - so what do the Democrats do - they sink even lower on the Bret Kavanaugh nomination. I’ll probably get beat up for this but I thought Bill Clinton was a pretty good President. Hillary on the other hand should be strung up on a powerline for the buzzards to eat - scratch that - buzzards do have standards. McConnel was wrong on Garland but remember Pelosi’s famous quote “we have to pass the bill so we can find out what’s in it” - that should have been her last statement in public office. The Obama birthplace thing was another partisan ridiculous pursuit. I fundamentally disagreed with Obama’s policies and when he got his “pen and phone” - picked HRC for Secretary of State - having far worse scandals than the Trump administration he went on my trash pile. This brings me to Trump. Does he say, tweet, do things I wish he wouldn’t do — YES!! On the other hand he has done EXACTLY what he said he was gonna do if he was elected. I get it that many people are turned off by him - I was in New York several months ago and most are dicks IMO 😂. But just because you do not like his policies or style is not a reason to impeach a President - that is what the voting booth is for. Lastly - if Trump committed a crime which every Democrat and their pundits decry - why was their no violation of law in the Democrats Articles of Impeachment??? One thing for sure - we agree - Biden, Sanders, Warren, Bloomberg ain’t gonna do nothing to bring this country together and if anything will bring the right out in force. Trump brings out the same furor in the left. No matter who wins in November I see a lot of turmoil on the horizon. That is why I am sticking with the devil I know - Trump!!

True, President Trump says too much sometime, but you do not have to guess which side he is on. Also by doing this the MEDIA can not twist and turn what he has said.

Quote from WOLF

How soon you forget how crybaby adjacent your beloved Republicans were. You need to peek outside your party blinders brother.

https://time.com/3033757/poll-obama-impeached-third/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/trump-obama-impeachment-republicans-democrats-1466865%3famp=1

Many Republicans wanted Obama impeached for "not being a U.S. born citizen". As if Hillary and all the Dems wouldn't try to prove that, if it were true, to beat him. As if the Republicans wouldn't have tried to prove it, if it were true, to beat him. It takes a "special" person to believe none of those career politicians would quickly end Obama's chances IF IT WERE TRUE. There is one VERY SPECIAL person that believed that illogical nonsense until the day he replaced Obama. Trump: "Der Dar der , they need to impeach Obama. I'll give one million dollars to any charity he wants if he shows us his real birth certificate". Der Dar der".

Is that the "this low" you speak of, or is "this low" not as low and crybabyish as Trump's lows?

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A man named Rafael Edward Cruz illegally ran for president.

Not one Republican said a word.

His Father was born in Cuba. His mother was born in the United States. Rafael was born in Canada.

According to Trump's, and most Republican's criteria, he could never be president. But, there he was, up on the debate stage, and on the primary ballots all around the country.

Just out of curiosity what is the point of asking us, the people, to be fair and consider all of the facts when it is not a requirement of the Senators to be fair and consider all of the facts?

If this were a real trial in a real court of law would any of the current Senators even be allowed to sit as Jurors? virtually everyone of them has already said they are biased?

This is not a normal court of law and it is pretty clear that being able to make an unbiased assessment of the evidence is not one of the requirements of being allowed to sit as a juror

samowens44 - with all due respect - do you really think anything said at this trial is going to change ANYBODY’S mind about this ?? The lines have already been drawn and judged with their minds made up. This will end with Trump being acquitted and all the Dems screaming cover up. It does interest me why this question was not raised during travesty of justice perpetrated by Schiff &Nadler. How can you think of holding Trump accountable for anything and give Schiff a pass - he is surely at the least guilty of attempting Russian collusion and abuse of power. That is evident using their own standards they used on Trump — on themselves !! This whole thing is just politics at its very worst !!

The problem we have now is that the constitution laid out has not been followed since before trump took office.
You have to play the cards your dealt.
If you follow the same path we are now on then several past presidents would have been impeached as well. It’s like a football game and some players get away with a cheap call and others don’t.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The problem as I see it is that some people, including some here, want to impeach Trump because they don't like what he has done and not because he actually committed high crimes and misdemeanors - the two articles of impeachment that the House as sent to the Senate are "abuse of power" & "obstruction of Congress" - are these "High crimes and misdemeanors"?

If abuse of power raises to this level then just about every politician in DC should be impeached and the second article to me can only be applied if the first is an actual crime - - how can it be obstruction if no crime was committed? seriously just because you don't give congress what they ask for is not a crime and Executive Privileged specifically allows the President the right to withhold information and to be able not cooperate with congress just because they ask for things

I would bet that we could find a few things that every single past president has done that some would consider an "abuse of power" and if we now lower the standard what will happen to every future president?

will anything we don't like become an "abuse of power"?

Quote from samowens44

Bill Martin, same respect back to you, I have seen the type of comments on Politics Sucks Thread support this same line of comment. "Why is this happening, let him do his thing. I like my stock market increases and the wall and keep gun on our hips. I don't care what he does, he is what I want in a president."

Bill, when we say we don't care what he does to reach goals he sets for our country, we are headed for dictator type control. We never want to open a door that will allow a president to do what ever to satisfy some of the people. We have future presidents that may have other ideas of their interest and not in our best interest. That is what I am worried about.

I feel, we are at a crossroads of a test of our constitution. Separation of powers and each branch is at the forefront to see, does congress have a power over a president or can he with hold congress approved funds.

Now we are going to see the evidence presented for those charges, I hope we can get all witnesses that can help prove one way or another. It is as simple as that. I am totally for our constitution and the process laid out by our founding fathers.

I would like Obama tried under this same set of rules or what ever you would like to call it. The way I see it the larger problems we are seeing now were started under Obama

Quote from Edward Neal

The problem as I see it is that some people, including some here, want to impeach Trump because they don't like what he has done and not because he actually committed high crimes and misdemeanors - the two articles of impeachment that the House as sent to the Senate are "abuse of power" & "obstruction of Congress" - are these "High crimes and misdemeanors"?

If abuse of power raises to this level then just about every politician in DC should be impeached and the second article to me can only be applied if the first is an actual crime - - how can it be obstruction if no crime was committed? seriously just because you don't give congress what they ask for is not a crime and Executive Privileged specifically allows the President the right to withhold information and to be able not cooperate with congress just because they ask for things

I would bet that we could find a few things that every single past president has done that some would consider an "abuse of power" and if we now lower the standard what will happen to every future president?

will anything we don't like become an "abuse of power"?

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EXACTLY !!