Ahhhhhh! Internal Combustion forever!

Quote from SlingLow

I am curious about how much real estate will be necessary for charging stations. If this infrastructure is built like our interstates, much of it will be a step behind actual needs. Need a 4 lane road? Build it and by the time it's done a 6 lane is required. Perhaps this will be taken into account and they will overbuild for current capacity requirements, but if not, as the market expands, you may pull into the charging station for your 20 minute charge and find yourself in a 3 hour line. (I'm just old enough to remember the lines at the gas stations in the 70's when the oil embargo hit.) Now your 12 hour trip that takes 14 hours becomes 24 hours. No thanks. Probably some genius will create an app where you can reserve your spot ahead of time with your phone. Hey...…...did I say that out loud?

My thoughts exactly

I think it would be a great idea if electric vehicles were designed with battery power packs that could be easily and quickly swapped out for a fresh pack.

if the manufactures could agree on a standard then instead of charging stations you could have exchange stations where you pull in and they quickly hoist out or drop out your depleted battery pack and replace it with a fresh one

then your old pack could be loaded into a charging rack where it could be charged slowly at the rate that is best for the batteries and then later it would be exchanged into some other car

if swapping batteries could be done as quickly as we now fuel our cars that would really help make electric a more viable option for many more people

also these exchange stations could still having charging ports for people who had the time or had an older car that didnt have the changeable batteries

I also have to wonder if a time comes where the majority of cars are electric what will charging stations want to charge per kWh

once this is not the novelty that it is now I would I would expect that charging stations will be businesses just like gas stations are now - - how much will these business add on to the price of electricity so that they can make a living

and at that point when the electric companies know you are charging your car at home will they start adding electric car surcharges and taxes?

I also fully expect that all of the state and federal gas taxes will need to be made up some how

right now electric is much less expensive than gasoline, but will it really stay that way for the purpose of charging cars if and when the majority of cars are electric?

I seriously have my doubts

Quote from Edward Neal

I think it would be a great idea if electric vehicles were designed with battery power packs that could be easily and quickly swapped out for a fresh pack.

if the manufactures could agree on a standard then instead of charging stations you could have exchange stations where you pull in and they quickly hoist out or drop out your depleted battery pack and replace it with a fresh one

then your old pack could be loaded into a charging rack where it could be charged slowly at the rate that is best for the batteries and then later it would be exchanged into some other car

if swapping batteries could be done as quickly as we now fuel our cars that would really help make electric a more viable option for many more people

also these exchange stations could still having charging ports for people who had the time or had an older car that didnt have the changeable batteries

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What happens to the poor person that gets the battery at the end of it's life cycle?

Quote from Edward Neal

I also have to wonder if a time comes where the majority of cars are electric what will charging stations want to charge per kWh

once this is not the novelty that it is now I would I would expect that charging stations will be businesses just like gas stations are now - - how much will these business add on to the price of electricity so that they can make a living

and at that point when the electric companies know you are charging your car at home will they start adding electric car surcharges and taxes?

I also fully expect that all of the state and federal gas taxes will need to be made up some how

right now electric is much less expensive than gasoline, but will it really stay that way for the purpose of charging cars if and when the majority of cars are electric?

I seriously have my doubts

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All good points. Especially that one.

Quote from SlingLow

All good points. Especially that one.

They still have to get the road tax somewhere.

Quote from FunCycle

What happens to the poor person that gets the battery at the end of it's life cycle?

hopefully battery health would be monitored by the exchange stations and and those batteries would be removed from service and recycled before becoming unacceptable

if by chance one did slip through the cracks - then whoever got it would not get very good range before they had to stop for an exchange - - or they would brake down and have to call for a tow like cars do from time to time

even now you risk that you might get "bad" gas so really not much different - just make sure you stop at name brand exchange stations that have "top tier" batteries

Yes Doc&Ruby weight and size would definitely be an issue with exchange batteries with battery technology now where it is, but if a uniform design was used by most vehicles that was specifically designed to be either lifted out by a hoist specifically designed for the job or or dropped out / lowered down either by something like a jack or other means 1000 pounds wouldnt be a big deal

people roll and lift much more weight than this all of the time using pallet jacks in warehouses

In my mind I like the idea of dropping the battery out of the bottom of the car I picture pulling into the station to the exchange spot much like you pull up to a pump. press some buttons to disengage the electronics and then lower the battery pack down onto some type of roller cart like a pallet jack which would then be used to roll the battery away - then roll a new battery into position press a few buttons to have it lifted into place and press the buttons to reconnect the electric and your ready to go - in a design dropping the pack out the bottom like this the winches or whatever that lower and raise the pack could be built right into the car

with current battery technology there is no way to get charging times to equal or better current fueling times - - exchanges seems like the only viable option if you want those speeds - at least its the only option I have thought of

The only way I can see the electric car/motorcycle working and selling is for people that do about 90% of their driving with a round trip of 100 miles from their home. Over all it is kind of like they tell you about ethanol being good for the envioromentl which is BS, it is way more worse for us than gasoline when everything is considered

Quote from FunCycle

The only way I can see the electric car/motorcycle working and selling is for people that do about 90% of their driving with a round trip of 100 miles from their home. Over all it is kind of like they tell you about ethanol being good for the envioromentl which is BS, it is way more worse for us than gasoline when everything is considered

Latest numbers show that the average person does roughly 30 miles per day. Averaging just under 11K miles a year. Of that, average drivers between the ages of 30-49 are the highest mileage drivers. They average about 36 miles a day. The average for those that live in rural areas or small towns drive further but still only average about 12,500 miles per years.

Now...as far as the environmental impact...Currently in the US, quite a few studies have shown that driving an EV is about the same as driving a vehicle that gets 80 mpg. This was written in Forbes Magazine last year: "New data shows that in every corner of the United States, driving an EV produces significantly fewer greenhouse gas emissions than cars powered only by gasoline, regardless of the local power mix. " For reference sake...in 2018 the average of all Internal combustion engines came up to about 25 mpg. So in reality...driving a modern EV, is better for the environment and your wallet...the only area that comes in to question is the manufacturing of cars and mining of the elements for the batteries. It's hard to get real info on how bad it is for the environment.

I would say that as time goes on...technology will always get better at least in the realm of electronics. ICE vehicles have gotten better...but with a 240 year jump start on EV's...you'd expect Internal Combustion Engines to be more efficient and cleaner burning than they are.

Quote from Br4hm4

Latest numbers show that the average person does roughly 30 miles per day. Averaging just under 11K miles a year. Of that, average drivers between the ages of 30-49 are the highest mileage drivers. They average about 36 miles a day. The average for those that live in rural areas or small towns drive further but still only average about 12,500 miles per years.

Now...as far as the environmental impact...Currently in the US, quite a few studies have shown that driving an EV is about the same as driving a vehicle that gets 80 mpg. This was written in Forbes Magazine last year: "New data shows that in every corner of the United States, driving an EV produces significantly fewer greenhouse gas emissions than cars powered only by gasoline, regardless of the local power mix. " For reference sake...in 2018 the average of all Internal combustion engines came up to about 25 mpg. So in reality...driving a modern EV, is better for the environment and your wallet...the only area that comes in to question is the manufacturing of cars and mining of the elements for the batteries. It's hard to get real info on how bad it is for the environment.

I would say that as time goes on...technology will always get better at least in the realm of electronics. ICE vehicles have gotten better...but with a 240 year jump start on EV's...you'd expect Internal Combustion Engines to be more efficient and cleaner burning than they are.

Yea, just like the government does not tell you the real cost of Ethanol. It is all about how you want to use the numbers. One person had his wings clipped on national TV when he was telling the real story about NASCAR changing over to Ethanol.

Quote from Doc&Ruby

Can you get me a link to that article? I'd like to look it over. I'm still skeptical - the amount of waste produced manufacturing an EV is far greater than an IC vehicle, and inherently less recyclable. I'd be interested to see if the article was just talking about the energy used driving the EV, or takes the entire cradle to grave process into account.

I have been reading up on it for awhile since I am an EV owner...but here is the Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/e…-in-america/#5998fb2571f8

I think the recycling aspect makes a better case for EV's... mostly due to companies like Tesla and Nissan using the old batteries as generators or emergency light set ups for third world countries, emergency hospitals, and other locations that don't have readily accessible power.

I think EV's are great for most of the daily driving that 99% of the people do. Where I think they still need improvement is for longer trips.

if you want a vehicle that is going to be regularly used on long driving vacations many of us do not want to spend a minimum of 20 minutes to do a quick charge to 50%

from the info I can find about using the supercharging stations this is what you are looking at

"Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 150 kW of power distributed between two cars with a maximum of 150 kW per car, depending on version. They take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S."

Clearly newer models with larger batteries will take longer

In a long days drive one stop of of 40 minutes to an hour while getting some lunch would be fine, but having to spend this much time every 250 to 300 miles would not be very enjoyable - especially if it were a family vacation with kids constantly asking "are we there yet"

Also as I noted above I highly suspect that when more and more cars do become electric that the powers that be will find a way to make up for the money they are no longer getting by selling and taxing gasoline - and the low price per mile for electric people are enjoying now will become a thing of the past - - - - The one thing that has actually kept the idea of a Tesla model S in consideration for my wife's next car is the fact that right now they include life time charging at the supercharger stations - - you can bet that will not be an offer that lasts forever

Free supergharging on the road and free charging at home from our solar is tempting - we could always rent a car for those long trips like we do now

might also want to add Tesla powerwalls to our 15 kw worth of inverters - nice whole house backup

Quote from Doc&Ruby

Can you get me a link to that article? I'd like to look it over. I'm still skeptical - the amount of waste produced manufacturing an EV is far greater than an IC vehicle, and inherently less recyclable. I'd be interested to see if the article was just talking about the energy used driving the EV, or takes the entire cradle to grave process into account.

They do not want to do that. To give out the REAL information.

Quote from Edward Neal

I think EV's are great for most of the daily driving that 99% of the people do. Where I think they still need improvement is for longer trips.

if you want a vehicle that is going to be regularly used on long driving vacations many of us do not want to spend a minimum of 20 minutes to do a quick charge to 50%

from the info I can find about using the supercharging stations this is what you are looking at

"Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 150 kW of power distributed between two cars with a maximum of 150 kW per car, depending on version. They take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S."

Clearly newer models with larger batteries will take longer

In a long days drive one stop of of 40 minutes to an hour while getting some lunch would be fine, but having to spend this much time every 250 to 300 miles would not be very enjoyable - especially if it were a family vacation with kids constantly asking "are we there yet"

Also as I noted above I highly suspect that when more and more cars do become electric that the powers that be will find a way to make up for the money they are no longer getting by selling and taxing gasoline - and the low price per mile for electric people are enjoying now will become a thing of the past - - - - The one thing that has actually kept the idea of a Tesla model S in consideration for my wife's next car is the fact that right now they include life time charging at the supercharger stations - - you can bet that will not be an offer that lasts forever

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It is kind of like the conserve water deal. There was a town (I forget where) that made the national news a few years back. They pushed for everyone to conserve water and got their wish, "BUT" they no longer had the money to operate their water treatment and sewage systems. The moral of the story is they had to raise their water usage rates to operate their systems. "BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR"

Quote from FunCycle

It is kind of like the conserve water deal. There was a town (I forget where) that made the national news a few years back. They pushed for everyone to conserve water and got their wish, "BUT" they no longer had the money to operate their water treatment and sewage systems. The moral of the story is they had to raise their water usage rates to operate their systems. "BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR"

you would have to be a bit of a sucker to think that the huge corporations and governments that make their profits off of selling oil and taxing it are just going to lay down and watch it all go away because people move to electric vehicles.

I had a P85D model S and all I can say is that is probably the only car I have ever regretted buying.

I live in MN where it is freaking cold most of the year which reduced range by half if not more(after all heating elements are on), then there was the struggle of going to charging stations to find them all full( this was back in 2014 before there were apps telling you the status of the stations).

But what really pissed me off was that 3 times I went to my car and found it in "limp"mode after an over the air update was applied and failed updating(without my knowledge I might add), the fact that they can screw with your car without even saying a thing and things can go wrong which then you are forced to have the vehicle towed to a dealer which then says they are backed up so they can't touch the vehicle for several days and they have no loaner available, sorry but for something that cost me 100k the service I got was mediocre at best.