Custom Roll Hoops

Very interesting and will look forward to seeing what you come up with. The question I have on this, and other roll hoop replacements is what level of testing is necessary to certify the load they will carry, specifically to satisfy the insurance carriers that safety has not been compromised?

I must say that I do love the "AC Cobra" look of the aftermarket roll hoops that are out there so I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Quote from SlingLow

Very interesting and will look forward to seeing what you come up with. The question I have on this, and other roll hoop replacements is what level of testing is necessary to certify the load they will carry, specifically to satisfy the insurance carriers that safety has not been compromised?

you raise an interesting question and I would like to know what if any testing is done, but I have to add that I dont see how the insurance carriers would ever know - even if you flipped do you think someone would show up to examine it and check this?

Quote from SlingLow

Very interesting and will look forward to seeing what you come up with. The question I have on this, and other roll hoop replacements is what level of testing is necessary to certify the load they will carry, specifically to satisfy the insurance carriers that safety has not been compromised?

Not to speak for WraithSS but I would assume about the same amount that goes into testing the safety of a quad kit or a new big brake kit......None, you hope for the best but make no guarantees .

The person designing them puts up their best effort to design the best they can within whatever criteria made them come up with the design but we should not kid ourselves no small manufacturer of mods has the capability to test their products to meet safety standards that would pass muster in the eye of an insurance company.

It is what it is, you mod at your own risk and hope you never have to really figure this out.

Quote from edwardaneal

you raise an interesting question and I would like to know what if any testing is done, but I have to add that I dont see how the insurance carriers would ever know - even if you flipped do you think someone would show up to examine it and check this?

My concern with insurance is when you think you are insured and then find out after an event that you are not. Can you imagine what would happen in a fatality roll over? I'm sure that there would be an investigation and removal or a change in your safety equipment would be discovered. This could be financially devastating to the responsible party if coverage is denied...

He answered at the same time as I did.........

Quote from SlingLow

My concern with insurance is when you think you are insured and then find out after an event that you are not. Can you imagine what would happen in a fatality roll over? I'm sure that there would be an investigation and removal or a change in your safety equipment would be discovered. This could be financially devastating to the responsible party if coverage is denied...

I fully understand you concern and agree with it, but I also wonder about the fact that the slingshot in most states carries motorcycle insurance and this makes me wonder if they even expect any kind of rollover protection on a "motorcycle" or know what is there in the first place?

Quote from edwardaneal

I fully understand you concern and agree with it, but I also wonder about the fact that the slingshot in most states carries motorcycle insurance and this makes me wonder if they even expect any kind of rollover protection on a "motorcycle" or know what is there in the first place?

I'm sure the insurance company, motorcycle or not, will look for and find any possible out to save money.

Quote from edwardaneal

I fully understand you concern and agree with it, but I also wonder about the fact that the slingshot in most states carries motorcycle insurance and this makes me wonder if they even expect any kind of rollover protection on a "motorcycle" or know what is there in the first place?

I am certainly no expert but I have read somewhere that the roll hoops are rated to carry 3 times the weight of the vehicle. That must mean something to someone. I'm also not saying that aftermarket hoops can't be just as safe or safer than stock. My concern is that I never want to be in the worst possible situation regarding insurance, which is when you are paying for coverage and think you are covered, but due to some technicality, you are not. An analogy would be an illegal apartment (unpermitted) in a home that causes a fire, burns the house down, and the insurance company denies coverage. This is exacerbated when personal injury is involved. Liability coverage has been a significant responsibility for me in my past life as a corporate controller and I have always been very conscious about my coverage.

Liability ...... Product liability and the possibility of being included in any type of law suit dealing with enjory or wrongful death keeps a lot of products from ever making it to market. I hate the look of the hoops as much as I hated the mirror arms. Would love to work with someone to bring a product like this to market but you have to step back and ask is it worth it.

Quote from WraithSS

"For Off Road Use Only" - this phrase gets placed on A LOT of aftermarket parts to alleviate the exact problem you just spoke of Mr. Duck. I would love to hear some of your ideas if you want to share or if you are keeping them for future products I totally understand.

As a side note when will you be releasing your mirror arms?

Yep and as we all know(at least those who enjoy off roading/Jeeps) normal insurance policies do not cover off road usage/ trail damage.

So as long as you market something as O/R only you are pretty much telling people buy at your own risk and most people buying something like that should understand what they are getting themselves into.

Anyways this is a small batch group buy lets wait until we see the rendering and the design before dooming and glooming the project.

Quote from WraithSS

"For Off Road Use Only" - this phrase gets placed on A LOT of aftermarket parts to alleviate the exact problem you just spoke of Mr. Duck. I would love to hear some of your ideas if you want to share or if you are keeping them for future products I totally understand.

As a side note when will you be releasing your mirror arms?

Again, I'm not an expert but I have also read that they (the infamous 'they') are now cracking down on the attempt to skirt liability by listing automotive items as 'off road use only' when the obvious use of the part and the vehicle is strictly road. It's a changing environment.

Edit: I just read Neosolidus ' last post. The 'off-road' nomenclature works with Jeeps and other off-roadable vehicles but may not be valid for your Porsche 911. Anyway, I'm not trying to rain on this parade, just clarify the insurance issue which I believe I have. Carry on!

Just a note: ProBox is designing a speaker pod bar for me that actually attaches to the existing roll protection. I will post pictures of it later today.

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Quote from WraithSS

"For Off Road Use Only" - this phrase gets placed on A LOT of aftermarket parts to alleviate the exact problem you just spoke of Mr. Duck. I would love to hear some of your ideas if you want to share or if you are keeping them for future products I totally understand.

As a side note when will you be releasing your mirror arms?

That used to work really well, especially when it came to engine parts, etc., however not so much anymore. The lawyers, EPA and product liability insurance people are much more understanding of the aftermarket industry as a whole now than they were back in the 90's and early 2000's. There has been a crack down on "off road use only" usage on parts, particularly engine parts, but even other parts.

Replacing the roll hoops, which were already engineered as a protective part from the OEM (polaris), is going to open up a lot of liability to a company. Unless that company can prove that the part they are selling was stronger and better at the job than the OEM part it replaces. If you can not prove something like that and a death or serious injury happens, you better have very good product liability insurance and a really good lawyer.

Not saying that they can't be made and sole, as there are the hoops that Assault are selling, but like Ruptured Duck mentioned, is the couple bucks that are made on each one worth the potential liability that you take on with something like this?

We have seen something like this in the Miata world with what is called a "style bar" that some people add. In that case though, there is no roll protection that is being removed and replaced with a different piece like we are talking about here with the roll bars. The companies that sell true roll bars in the Miata community usually have some testing that shows that the roll bar will do the job, but once again, these are being added to a vehicle that does not have any roll protection. If this was the case with the Slingshot, it would be a much easier proposition, but replacing a roll protection device with another part gets more involved.

If doing it as a one off on a personal Slingshot, I would say go for it, as you take on the responsibility yourself. However, if carrying a passenger and the passenger is killed or hurt in a rollover and it can be attributed to the design of the new rollbar, not only would that be something terrible to live with, but also a huge legal issue.

I would love to see some cool designs, but taking something like this to the next level and selling it, I would strongly suggest a really good talk to your product liability insurance provider and attorney.

Sorry if that all sounds doom and gloom, but hope it helps,

Dave

Once again for all group buy comments....