Forced Induction Group Buy?

    Quote from WrongWheelDrive

    Have any of the vendors ever set up a group buy on a Turbo or SC system? I haven't been around here all that long and haven't seen any...was curious if they ever have in the past?

    Yes, they did turbos for $300 and SCs for $250, both installed. Don't feel bad, I missed out too. :(



    Psych! I'm such a juvenile! Let the adults answer now...pretty sure the answer is yes.

    Remember folks - this isn't a rehearsal, this is The Show!8)

    With respect to Turbo users and vendors, its a path i may follow in the future, i still have concerns with these setups...a blown this a cracked that, now i need this and that, the thingamajig needs ajusting the thingamajig needs replacement, run rich, too lean. Turbos have been on the ecotec for years so why is it an ever morfic issue on the SS engine. Again you guys know me and never comment with any disrespect. All i have are questions and regrets and i should've bought bitcoin 4 years ago.....

    As one of the first Hahnnites... I was the first to have a tuned ECU and not run a piggybacked system and the first to run a 2bar MAP sensor. Not sure why I got no love when it came time for the new intake??? What the hell Bill??? Anyway I know I have not posted much in a while, but I will be first to say that after over 35,000 HARD MILES... I have never had a problem with my set up.
    Except for speeding tickets.
    And I still rep HAHN on my hood and the Stage 2X tag.


    Really Bill....A used intake? maybe a dented one?? Jesus I sound like MIM

    Quote from kenny_h

    As one of the first Hahnnites... I was the first to have a tuned ECU and not run a piggybacked system and the first to run a 2bar MAP sensor. Not sure why I got no love when it came time for the new intake??? What the hell Bill??? Anyway I know I have not posted much in a while, but I will be first to say that after over 35,000 HARD MILES... I have never had a problem with my set up.
    Except for speeding tickets.
    And I still rep HAHN on my hood and the Stage 2X tag.


    Really Bill....A used intake? maybe a dented one?? Jesus I sound like MIM

    Like this...?!


    Slingshots: making children out of adults since 2014

    Quote from kenny_h

    As one of the first Hahnnites... I was the first to have a tuned ECU and not run a piggybacked system and the first to run a 2bar MAP sensor. Not sure why I got no love when it came time for the new intake??? What the hell Bill??? Anyway I know I have not posted much in a while, but I will be first to say that after over 35,000 HARD MILES... I have never had a problem with my set up.
    Except for speeding tickets.
    And I still rep HAHN on my hood and the Stage 2X tag.


    Really Bill....A used intake? maybe a dented one?? Jesus I sound like MIM

    Don't feel bad Kenny, I was the FIRST and was waiting for an intake since day one when the one he had wouldn't fit the slingshot (it hit the master cylinder, so the runners had to be angled different). I thought I was going to be first on the list after all I had put up with. I guess we're no longer on the "nice' list

    Nobody gets outta here ALIVE

    Alpha, although now apparently belly-up, offered their turbo system in a Group Buy a while back for around $4400 (not sure if that included an exhaust or not, but I don't think it did).
    Every now and then, Hahn has offered a "Slightly Warm" special that includes a FREE Street Race muffler (normally $600) that someone else traded-in to upgrade to a side exhaust. Hahn still offers the same lifetime warranty on their muffler (if it breaks, your life is over :D ). I bought my "Slightly Warm" special before he lowered his system prices and got a basic Hahn Stage 2/2X system for $4000 + shipping. Now, Hahn's system is priced even lower and a brand new Hahn Stage 2/2X turbo kit with the Full Race exhaust ($400, very LOUD) gets you in at $3800 + shipping. Figure another $300+/- for a Boost/AFR gauge setup. If you want someone else to do the install for you, figure on another $1200 or so (based on costs here int he Houston area). Hahn also offers Street Race and Side exhaust systems for $600/900, respectively). Obviously, options can drive the cost higher. Personally, I like the sound of the Street race exhaust with the optional baffles as I prefer to ride at night and don't want to wake my neighbors. It's still a little loud, but I like the deep sound.
    Going with an aftermarket exhaust designed for a boosted system costs in the $1500-2000 range. I originally was leaning towards an SC setup, but they cost more and still needed an exhaust on top of that, so I went with Hahn. If you're limited on funds, but still want to get started with a boosted system, Hahn offers their Stage 1 System (3-4 lbs Boost, but no Intercooler) starting at $2700 + exhaust. He offers an upgrade path to go from Stage 1 to Stage 2/2X for around $900. Costs a little more in the long run, but you can get started at a relatively safe boost level at a decent price.
    Even with the basic Stage 1 system, I'd recommend a combo or dual Boost/AFR gauges to keep an eye on your system. A lot of SC owners don't use gauges since there is a direct link between engine rpm and boost. With turbos, there can be some variation in boost and it is more important to keep an eye on what is happening to your system. Running lean seems to be the most significant cause of problems with boosted systems, so monitoring AFR is very important, regardless of boost system. Even with gauges, you might not notice dangerous conditions, but at least you have the info available to hopefully realize you have a problem, so I feel the $300+/- cost of monitoring Boost and AFR is a smart expenditure.
    AEM gauges Boost and AFR seem to be popular. I chose an Innovate SCG-1 combo gauge that monitors Boost and AFR and can also be used as a boost controller, although that feature hasn't been made to work well with the Slingshot. Koso makes a waterproof gauge for snowmobiles and motorcycles, so I may switch to Koso at some point in the future.
    Depending on the situation, it may take a month or more for your system to get ready to ship.
    FWIW, I have no connection to Hahn beyond having paid them my money.

    Edited 3 times, last by BKL ().

    Quote from Nemesis1701

    With respect to Turbo users and vendors, its a path i may follow in the future, i still have concerns with these setups...a blown this a cracked that, now i need this and that, the thingamajig needs adjusting the thingamajig needs replacement, run rich, too lean. Turbos have been on the ecotec for years so why is it an ever morfic issue on the SS engine. Again you guys know me and never comment with any disrespect. All i have are questions and regrets and i should've bought bitcoin 4 years ago..

    We've not seen wholesale issues with our Slingshot TurboSystems, but we're confident there are some good reasons for this. You touch on at least one, the fact that turbos have been on these engines for years.


    To that end, no other company has been turbocharging Ecotec longer than we...for fully half of our 30-year existence, we've been boosting GM's little engine, ever since it first bowed in this country, when GM called upon us to add boost to a pair of their cars for the vaunted SEMA show in 2003. To that end, GM's later factory turbo versions of the cars that we've pioneered Ecotec boost upon (such as Cobalt and Solstice/Sky) would be very similar in layout to our systems, which we find to be the best compliment of all. With many thousands of Ecotec TurboSystems produced to date, and many with tens of thousands of trouble-free miles over many years...we are proud to say that the only company that has turbocharged more Ecotecs than us - is GM themselves!


    What makes us strong? The basic things, really...primarily decades of creating race-winning and record-setting technology that is proven in competition, and then translated to the street. Our ability to design and produce durable, dependable TurboSystems is unparalleled where this Ecotec engine is concerned. It is our specialty, it is our focus...it is what we have become very accomplished at. Turbocharging inline fours is the work of my and my late father's lifetimes, stretching back over 45 years. It is what we do at Hahn RaceCraft, and I am confident that we bring an abundance of capability and passion to the table which is reflected in our products.

    Quote from Bill from Hahn RaceCraft

    We've not seen wholesale issues with our Slingshot TurboSystems, but we're confident there are some good reasons for this. You touch on at least one, the fact that turbos have been on these engines for years.


    To that end, GM's later factory turbo versions of the cars that we've pioneered Ecotec boost upon (such as Cobalt and Solstice/Sky) would be very similar in layout to our systems, which we find to be the best compliment of all.

    Bill, you bring up some excellent points of discussion,


    Although your turbo kit has not destroyed nearly as many engines as we know of with the Alpha turbo kit, you have not not sold nearly as many kits either. The latest versions of your kit we have seen, still have the same short comings in its design that has caused failures of your customers engines that could have been prevented with relatively simple design changes related to boost control and fueling. I would be interested in what you have done or plan to do to take care of those on your kit.


    Can you please explain how you think that GM's later factory turbo versions of their engines are similar to your system? You are correct that GM used a turbo and front mounted intercooler, but beyond these basics of all intercooled turbo kits on any engine, the turbo GM used on the LNF engine is a completely different turbo compared to what you use on your kits. (The K04 on the LNF has a dual scroll turbine housing, water cooling, ball bearing center cartridge, internal wastegate, internal bypass valve, electronic boost control, etc., all features that the Precision turbo and your kit does not have). They also use a much better flowing cast manifold than the basic log style manifold used on your kits, along with quite a few other small differences. Other than the basics of having a turbo and intercooler found on kits long before the Ecotec was around, I can not find any similarities.


    Thanks!
    Dave

    Quote from Bill from Hahn RaceCraft

    when GM called upon us to add boost to a pair of their cars for the vaunted SEMA show in 2003. To that end, GM's later factory turbo versions of the cars that we've pioneered Ecotec boost upon (such as Cobalt and Solstice/Sky) would be very similar in layout to our systems, which we find to be the best compliment of all.

    .


    Once again ......... GM had a Turbo version of the Ecotec in Europe (Saab and Opel..used also by Lotus) and on US sold Saab's since the 1st generation 2.0L LK9 motor designed and on the road well before the '03 SEMA show ..... as well as a turbo version sold on every generation since ......


    ...... bored-squared


    .

    :REDSS: The ghost of SLingshot past ......

    Quote from Dave@DDMWorks

    Bill, you bring up some excellent points of discussion,
    Although your turbo kit has not destroyed nearly as many engines as we know of with the Alpha turbo kit, you have not not sold nearly as many kits either. The latest versions of your kit we have seen, still have the same short comings in its design that has caused failures of your customers engines that could have been prevented with relatively simple design changes related to boost control and fueling. I would be interested in what you have done or plan to do to take care of those on your kit.


    Can you please explain how you think that GM's later factory turbo versions of their engines are similar to your system? You are correct that GM used a turbo and front mounted intercooler, but beyond these basics of all intercooled turbo kits on any engine, the turbo GM used on the LNF engine is a completely different turbo compared to what you use on your kits. (The K04 on the LNF has a dual scroll turbine housing, water cooling, ball bearing center cartridge, internal wastegate, internal bypass valve, electronic boost control, etc., all features that the Precision turbo and your kit does not have). They also use a much better flowing cast manifold than the basic log style manifold used on your kits, along with quite a few other small differences. Other than the basics of having a turbo and intercooler found on kits long before the Ecotec was around, I can not find any similarities.


    Thanks!
    Dave

    Thanks Dave! Always enjoy the opportunity to elaborate.


    As to the point of "destroyed engines", as one might imagine, this is an area of some interest with me of late. We've heard the stories our competition in the turbokit market have spread, that "Hahn blows more than Alpha", and unequivocally state that these accusations are without sufficient basis...and many enthusiasts in the know, who have watched the Slingshot scene since its inception, do concur.


    Of the hundreds of Slingshot TurboSystems we've sold to date, I only know of several where owners have seen engine damage (and often with extenuating circumstances), whereas the reports of same with the competition have been numerous, and thus well in excess of any actual or perceived ratio vs. sales volume. I'd be interested in discussing the "shortcomings" you describe with our product, so please...elaborate away. This may not be the right place for a vendor showdown, as the good people here were expressing an interest on a Group Buy, not point-counterpoint on what competing vendors perceive and purvey about their competition...but if you wish to proceed, please do so.


    As mentioned, we worked extensively with GM during the introduction of the Ecotec engine in the USA, also directly participating with their GM Racing and Hyrdramatic divisions, leading to the inclusion of our products in their iconic Ecotec Build Book. The physical layouts of their factory systems for Solstice/Sky and Cobalt are nigh identical to our earlier-developed systems, and that's the characteristic to which I allude. The two pics below tell the story. Turbo location, intercooler location, downpipe routing, charge pipe routing, even intake system routing...all identical to our system. As GM Powertrain engineers were some of the first to view our system before it was made public, and as they praised the layout as "OEM-like" and attractive, we're pretty certain on this contention. If they didn't copy it verbatim, it certainly was an inspiration!




    To that end, a similar scenario unfolded when Chrysler introduced their mighty SRT-4. Our pioneering, record-setting and widely acclaimed work with the Neon in turbocharged form preceded SRT-4 by a number of years, and also led to our direct factory involvement with Chrysler. We're proud that the factory turbo version was not only inspired by our extensive success with the engine series, but again, quite similar in layout to our turbosystems.


    While our Fab40 Turbo Manifold may not have the mega-power (600+ HP) flow capacity of a separated-runner manifold or header, its positive attributes are many, and it is those attributes which we are convinced our customers prize: durability and functionality. As it has also been proven effective at power levels in excess of 600 WHP by our customers, we're very confident in its ability to flow quite well at the more conservative levels we're likely to see on Slingshot. Why do we continue to use this proven piece, which carries a lifetime warranty against cracking?


    1. With over ten thousand produced to date, and in constant production since 1998, the Fab40 turbo manifold has been continuously refined, leading to its current record of durability and, of course, its Lifetime Warranty. Our proprietary processes build a unit that is more dependable than even cast knockoffs which our competition has "developed". Yes, we could take the shortcut of having it replicated in a cast version (as our competition has done in imitation), but we prize its stellar track record, and have seen chronic cracking issues with the cast imitations. As such, we continue to fabricate the unit in our own facility, with the quality control and results that only in-house manufacturing can attain.
    2. As mentioned, since it's proven itself capable of providing over 600 WHP, it most evidently possesses the flow capability to support the power ranges common to Slingshot.
    3. On Slingshot, Fab40's compact design mounts the turbocharger at a position that provides correct turbo oil drain capability, which when combined with our exclusive use of the factory-intended turbo oil drain port on the engine block, does not lead to the smoking and oiling issues which have plagued other turbosystems coming from less-experienced vendors. These are new start-up companies in the turbo biz, one of which has taken the questionable shortcut of using an adaptor plate to mount the turbo to the stock manifold. This is not only an engineering compromise, it also mounts to the turbo too low for effective draining. There are a number of other shortcomings with this "adapter plate" approach, not the least of which is the O2 sensor incorrectly positioned in the pressurized, hotter portion (upstream of turbo, as opposed to the accepted position downstream) of the exhaust tract. So the fact that we provide a proven turbo-specific manifold at all, in light of the fact that the competition did not even bother, further demonstrates the value inherent in our systems.
    4. The competition's peculiar habit of mounting the wastegate directly to the turbocharger, necessitated by the compromise of using the stock exhaust manifold (which has no wastegate provision, of course), leads to a less favorable design. Our Fab40 Turbo Manifold mounts the wastegate directly above the turbocharger's exhaust inlet, in a central location which is not only much more conducive to proper boost control, but also equalized exhaust pressure across all cylinders, as is it centrally located to all cylinders.