Questions After First Start of my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo Kit

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    • Questions After First Start of my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo Kit

      After receiving my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo kit at the beginning of November 2016, I waited for the various recalls to get completed. Once the recalls had been fixed, I checked with a neighbor (local High School Auto Shop teacher) about having is students perform the turbo install, but it turned out it was too late in the school year and next year the program is undergoing some significant changes), so I ended up not getting started with the install until the beginning of July 2017. With delays ranging from a family trip, summer rain, the typical Houston heat & humidity (I hate working outside when it's humid), the flooding associated with Hurricane Harvey, and some extra delays to make sure I had oil properly pumping thru the engine, today, I finally got everything to the point where I was able to start my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo kit for the first time, but I have not yet driven the Slingshot with the turbo since I have a couple questions.

      1 - I have an Innovate Motorsports SCG-1 AFR/Boost Controller that I am using just to monitor Boost and AFR. When it first gets electricity, it displays a message that it is warming its dedicated O2 Sensor. IIRC, it takes about 30 seconds before the sensor is warmed and the gauge begins to display its values. Should I wait for the warming process to complete before staring the motor? Note - After buying the SCG-1 and its associated data Logger, I came across the Koso X2 waterproof Boost/AFR/Temp electronic gauge, which I am considering as a more durable replacement for the SCG-1, which like AEM's Boost/AFR gauge is not waterproof.

      2 - After I started the motor, the SCG-1 showed a negative vacuum at idle (around -18" Hg) and an AFR rating of around 19-20. This should indicate a severe lean condition that is NOT compatible with engine survival. There is also a strong smell of gasoline in the exhaust which I assume wouldn't be there if the engine is really running as lean as indicated. I think I read that connecting the MAP Sensor with the Hahn kit backwards will cause abnormally high AFR readings, although I believe this was an issue with the earlier Hahn kits and shouldn't be a problem with my kit since mine was shipped to me at the beginning of November 2016. Any ideas on what might be causing the odd AFR readings? I'm reluctant to actually drive my Slingshot until I've resolved the AFR readings. Any assistance appreciated.
    • BKL wrote:

      After receiving my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo kit at the beginning of November 2016, I waited for the various recalls to get completed. Once the recalls had been fixed, I checked with a neighbor (local High School Auto Shop teacher) about having is students perform the turbo install, but it turned out it was too late in the school year and next year the program is undergoing some significant changes), so I ended up not getting started with the install until the beginning of July 2017. With delays ranging from a family trip, summer rain, the typical Houston heat & humidity (I hate working outside when it's humid), the flooding associated with Hurricane Harvey, and some extra delays to make sure I had oil properly pumping thru the engine, today, I finally got everything to the point where I was able to start my Hahn Stage 2 Turbo kit for the first time, but I have not yet driven the Slingshot with the turbo since I have a couple questions.

      1 - I have an Innovate Motorsports SCG-1 AFR/Boost Controller that I am using just to monitor Boost and AFR. When it first gets electricity, it displays a message that it is warming its dedicated O2 Sensor. IIRC, it takes about 30 seconds before the sensor is warmed and the gauge begins to display its values. Should I wait for the warming process to complete before staring the motor? Note - After buying the SCG-1 and its associated data Logger, I came across the Koso X2 waterproof Boost/AFR/Temp electronic gauge, which I am considering as a more durable replacement for the SCG-1, which like AEM's Boost/AFR gauge is not waterproof.

      2 - After I started the motor, the SCG-1 showed a negative vacuum at idle (around -18" Hg) and an AFR rating of around 19-20. This should indicate a severe lean condition that is NOT compatible with engine survival. There is also a strong smell of gasoline in the exhaust which I assume wouldn't be there if the engine is really running as lean as indicated. I think I read that connecting the MAP Sensor with the Hahn kit backwards will cause abnormally high AFR readings, although I believe this was an issue with the earlier Hahn kits and shouldn't be a problem with my kit since mine was shipped to me at the beginning of November 2016. Any ideas on what might be causing the odd AFR readings? I'm reluctant to actually drive my Slingshot until I've resolved the AFR readings. Any assistance appreciated.
      @rabtech or @Dave@DDMWorks do either of you think you could chime in!
      MOE MONEY - MOE MODS
      :GRAYSS:
      LONE WOLF
    • Did you have the ecu reprogrammed by Bob in CA, or are you still running the stock Polaris tune? Did you replace the map sensor to the two bar sensor, or still running the original?
      If your carpet has to match the drapes,
      shouldn't your trailer match your Slingshot?
    • Here's a pic of the SCG-1 display and the Map Sensor included with the Hahn kit -
      The ECU was reflashed by Bob. The Hahn Stage 2 Turbo kit includes a 2 Bar MAP Sensor and I hopefully have the connector from the 2 Bar sensor properly connected to the Polaris harness. The connection to the Polaris harness can fit either way, but I assumed it should be same color to same color (as closely as possible).
    • You might consider the possibility of an air leak in the exhaust system near or ahead of the O2 sensor. Such as a Manifold gasket, improper torque on the O2 sensor itself or lose connections to the muffler/exhaust.
      The vacuum at idle is normal, how much I dunno, but 18-20 sounds about right. And being your only "monitoring" with your gauge and not using its said O2 sensor for ECU input, the warmup period is of no concern.
      What I deduce is that you have dual O2 sensors, one for your gauge and one for the ECU.
      As for the possible air leak here's what can happen. If the sensor is picking up oxygen from a leak (gasket or otherwise) the ECU thinks the system is lean and will then try to richen the mixture to compensate and you get in actuality a very rich condition, hence the smell of a fume heavy exhaust.
      ya might give it a once over and see it that helps.
      Good luck bubba.
    • You do not need to let the wideband sensor warm up. Just start it as normal and it will read correctly after a few seconds as it should.

      The vacuum readout is correct, as it should be around -18 to -20 at idle.

      You AFR reading is off. How long does that reading stay at that value? Most Slingshot will have a lean AFR at initial setup and it will slowly become richer as the throttle blade slowly shuts. This is something that is programmed into the ECM and it shouldn't scare you. Let it idle for 5-10 minutes and see if this number drops. You want to see an idle AFR around 13 - 14.5. Most run right around 13.5, depending if it is programmed to run closed loop or open loop idle.
      Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D
    • More info from gauge manual below....

      Exhaust leaks, camshaft overlap, and open (shorty) exhausts will
      cause false lean readings at light engine loads. Typically, once the
      engine is under load and the exhaust gas volume increases, you will
      see accurate readings.

      When installed in the exhaust, the oxygen sensor must be connected
      to a powered, functional SCG-1 (no error codes) whenever the
      engine is running. An un-powered sensor will be damaged in a short
      period of time when exposed to exhaust gas.

      Do not pre-warm the sensor before starting the engine, start the
      engine as you normal would. Allowing the sensor to pre-warm
      before starting the engine will increase the possibility of damaging
      the sensor from shock-cooling.
      Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D
    • You probably didn't calibrate the sensor and you need to do the below...

      2.5.2 Sensor Calibration
      Once the unit has been wired and a suitable location has been found for both
      the gauge and the sensor. it is time to perform the sensor calibration.
      Innovate Motorsports’ ‘Direct Digital’ wideband measurement principal allows
      you to calibrate the sensor to compensate for sensor wear. This procedure
      takes just a few moments and it will ensure the most accurate readings
      throughout the oxygen sensor’s life. This procedure is required anytime a
      NEW oxygen sensor is installed.

      The calibration procedure requires that the oxygen sensor be in free air, this
      means removed from the exhaust system completely.

      1. With the sensor disconnected, apply power to the SCG-1.
      Confirm that the top right-hand corner viewport displays “O2 E2.” This is
      an error code, indicating that no sensor is detected. Leave unit powered
      on for a minimum of 30 seconds.

      2. Power down the SCG-1 and attach the oxygen sensor using the cable
      provided. When making these connections, make sure they are fully
      seated and locked. Again, make sure that the sensor is in free air (not in
      the exhaust).

      3. Power up the SCG-1.
      The SCG-1 will start warming up the sensor, this is indicated on top righthand
      corner viewport of the display by showing “O2 HTR.” After 30-60
      seconds, the display will switch from “O2 HTR” and quickly flash “O2
      CAL”, indicating that the sensor is being calibrated.
      The calibration procedure has completed and the system is now ready
      for use.
      Important: You can disconnect and reconnect the sensor and sensor
      cable for installation without losing your calibration. However, if you
      power up the SCG-1 without a sensor connected, your calibration will
      be reset (see step #1 above).
      10

      2.5.3 Calibration Schedule
      Turbo Application, daily driver (tuned rich)
      - Calibrate before installation of new sensor
      - Calibrate new sensor again after 3 month of use
      - Thereafter calibrate twice a year or every 10,000 miles, whichever comes
      first

      Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D
    • One last thing....

      Don't be afraid to drive it if it seems to be running ok and you have the right injectors, map sensor, plugs, and Bobs turbo ECM tune.

      If something is really wrong, and it is lean, you will know. It will run like crap and you will hear detonation (pinging) under full boost pulls.

      4 messages in a row - must be some kind of annoying record. ha ;)
      Owner of Slingshot #263 that has some stock parts left on it. :D
    • TravAZ wrote:

      You do not need to let the wideband sensor warm up. Just start it as normal and it will read correctly after a few seconds as it should.

      The vacuum readout is correct, as it should be around -18 to -20 at idle.

      You AFR reading is off. How long does that reading stay at that value? Most Slingshot will have a lean AFR at initial setup and it will slowly become richer as the throttle blade slowly shuts. This is something that is programmed into the ECM and it shouldn't scare you. Let it idle for 5-10 minutes and see if this number drops. You want to see an idle AFR around 13 - 14.5. Most run right around 13.5, depending if it is programmed to run closed loop or open loop idle.
      I've only allowed the engine idle for about 1 minute or so as the way too high AFR scared me! Will try a longer idle.

      TravAZ wrote:

      More info from gauge manual below....

      Exhaust leaks, camshaft overlap, and open (shorty) exhausts will
      cause false lean readings at light engine loads. Typically, once the
      engine is under load and the exhaust gas volume increases, you will
      see accurate readings.

      When installed in the exhaust, the oxygen sensor must be connected
      to a powered, functional SCG-1 (no error codes) whenever the
      engine is running. An un-powered sensor will be damaged in a short
      period of time when exposed to exhaust gas.

      Do not pre-warm the sensor before starting the engine, start the
      engine as you normal would. Allowing the sensor to pre-warm
      before starting the engine will increase the possibility of damaging
      the sensor from shock-cooling.
      I knew about not running with an unpowered sensor. Missed the do not pre-warm sentence.

      TravAZ wrote:

      You probably didn't calibrate the sensor and you need to do the below...

      2.5.2 Sensor Calibration
      Once the unit has been wired and a suitable location has been found for both
      the gauge and the sensor. it is time to perform the sensor calibration.
      Innovate Motorsports’ ‘Direct Digital’ wideband measurement principal allows
      you to calibrate the sensor to compensate for sensor wear. This procedure
      takes just a few moments and it will ensure the most accurate readings
      throughout the oxygen sensor’s life. This procedure is required anytime a
      NEW oxygen sensor is installed.

      The calibration procedure requires that the oxygen sensor be in free air, this
      means removed from the exhaust system completely.

      1. With the sensor disconnected, apply power to the SCG-1.
      Confirm that the top right-hand corner viewport displays “O2 E2.” This is
      an error code, indicating that no sensor is detected. Leave unit powered
      on for a minimum of 30 seconds.

      2. Power down the SCG-1 and attach the oxygen sensor using the cable
      provided. When making these connections, make sure they are fully
      seated and locked. Again, make sure that the sensor is in free air (not in
      the exhaust).

      3. Power up the SCG-1.
      The SCG-1 will start warming up the sensor, this is indicated on top righthand
      corner viewport of the display by showing “O2 HTR.” After 30-60
      seconds, the display will switch from “O2 HTR” and quickly flash “O2
      CAL”, indicating that the sensor is being calibrated.
      The calibration procedure has completed and the system is now ready
      for use.
      Important: You can disconnect and reconnect the sensor and sensor
      cable for installation without losing your calibration. However, if you
      power up the SCG-1 without a sensor connected, your calibration will
      be reset (see step #1 above).
      10

      2.5.3 Calibration Schedule
      Turbo Application, daily driver (tuned rich)
      - Calibrate before installation of new sensor
      - Calibrate new sensor again after 3 month of use
      - Thereafter calibrate twice a year or every 10,000 miles, whichever comes
      first
      I followed the calibration instructions. When I initially went to try calibration, the gauge wasn't lighting up so I spent some time checking various connections and finally removed a butt joint between the inline fuse and the positive lead going to the gauge to get it to light up. I then followed the calibrations instructions.

      TravAZ wrote:

      One last thing....

      Don't be afraid to drive it if it seems to be running ok and you have the right injectors, map sensor, plugs, and Bobs turbo ECM tune.

      If something is really wrong, and it is lean, you will know. It will run like crap and you will hear detonation (pinging) under full boost pulls.

      4 messages in a row - must be some kind of annoying record. ha ;)
      With that high AFR reading, I was scared to run the engine until I did some more research and postings for info from people with more experience than I have. I remembered reading that reversing the MAP sensor adapter could cause high readings, but will try allowing the engine to idle for a longer period before I try messing with the MAP sensor connector. After having my Daughter's daily driver throw a rod and spending close to $4K to install a used engine, I'm a little paranoid about my Slingshot motor. That was the main reason I wanted to make sure my oil pump was properly working and why I built the pressure luber to force oil thru the engine before I tried to start the engine. :D
      If I can read enough about something, I am usually willing to try tackling it, but sometimes too much knowledge on some things combined with awareness of possible shortcomings in other areas can induce too much paranoia to get things finished. Better safe than sorry.
      Thanks for the tips and the encouragement.
    • I started the motor and allowed it to idle for about 3-4 minutes, but shut it off as the AFR numbers started just under 20 and kept going up. I shut it off as it was hovering around 21+ with occasional short dips into the 20s. It did seem to be idling smoothly, though. I wanted to check the Forum before I tried reversing the sensor harness connection tot he Polaris wiring harness.

      Update - Found a post from @TravAZ where he was advising another Hahn Turbo owner - "Things to check...

      1. Is your 2 bar map sensor plugged in correctly? Yes, the adapter allows you to plug it in flipped, so the wires don't match. Look at original wires and the adapter plug to make sure the colors match the way you have it plugged in." My connectors have slightly different color wires, but a shown in the pic in Post #4, I tried to align the colors.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by BKL ().

    • Good News (sorta)! I restarted the engine and noticed I had the Check Engine Symbol staying on after I started the engine. Went and rediscovered how to retrieve the error code and found a 0 65542 5 error code indicating a problem with Coil # 2, which was the last cylinder I had pulled and re-seated the spark plug with anti-seize compound after forgetting to apply anti-seize compound to the plugs during the initial install. Evidently, I hadn't properly seated the connector :/ , so I pulled it and reconnected it firmly. The Check Engine symbol is still ON, but the AFR dropped down to the 15-15.7 range. Since the coil wasn't firing properly, that would explain the rich gas smell. I feel BIGLY relieved since the AFR is no longer so far off! :thumbsup:
      I used the term "Good News (sorta)" since it appears I need to visit a dealer to get the code reset according to what i read on page 12.31 of my 2015 Service manual, although I have read where codes reset themselves after several starts. The Service Manual has this to say -
      "Clearing Trouble Codes
      6. Click on the “Clear Trouble Codes” icon to clear
      codes." I'll give it a few restarts before trying a dealer.

      Unfortunately, while I'd like to go for a short test ride and then come back and retighten the fasteners and reinstall the large body side panel I took off for the install, the weather forecast is for occasional rain overnight (roads are currently wet), but tomorrow is 0% chance of rain according to the Weather Channel. :D
    • BKL wrote:

      Good News (sorta)! I restarted the engine and noticed I had the Check Engine Symbol staying on after I started the engine. Went and rediscovered how to retrieve the error code and found a 0 65542 5 error code indicating a problem with Coil # 2, which was the last cylinder I had pulled and re-seated the spark plug with anti-seize compound after forgetting to apply anti-seize compound to the plugs during the initial install. Evidently, I hadn't properly seated the connector :/ , so I pulled it and reconnected it firmly. The Check Engine symbol is still ON, but the AFR dropped down to the 15-15.7 range. Since the coil wasn't firing properly, that would explain the rich gas smell. I feel BIGLY relieved since the AFR is no longer so far off! :thumbsup:
      I used the term "Good News (sorta)" since it appears I need to visit a dealer to get the code reset according to what i read on page 12.31 of my 2015 Service manual, although I have read where codes reset themselves after several starts. The Service Manual has this to say -
      "Clearing Trouble Codes
      6. Click on the “Clear Trouble Codes” icon to clear
      codes." I'll give it a few restarts before trying a dealer.

      Unfortunately, while I'd like to go for a short test ride and then come back and retighten the fasteners and reinstall the large body side panel I took off for the install, the weather forecast is for occasional rain overnight (roads are currently wet), but tomorrow is 0% chance of rain according to the Weather Channel. :D
      Congratulations - sounds like you might finally be ready to enjoy some boost.
      I would just cycle thru 3 - 4 starts before you go to the dealer. It will most likely reset itself.
      MOE MONEY - MOE MODS
      :GRAYSS:
      LONE WOLF
    • BKL wrote:

      MACAWS wrote:

      Congratulations - sounds like you might finally be ready to enjoy some boost.I would just cycle thru 3 - 4 starts before you go to the dealer. It will most likely reset itself.
      That's what I'm hoping.
      Good luck and welcome to the brotherhood of boost
      MOE MONEY - MOE MODS
      :GRAYSS:
      LONE WOLF
    • Crap! I was trying to tighten the overflow tank screws and one of them didn't seem to want to fit. I had it slightly in and used a long dowel and hammer to try and shift the mounting bracket. Stoopid ME! I hit the metal bracket, but ended up breaking the driver's side mounting tab on the coolant overflow tank. I found part of the shattered plastic tab under the Slingshot and my Wife found the metal insert that the mounting bolt tightens against. Unfortunately, the metal insert was on some wire almost directly above the hole on the driver's side of the bell-housing where the hydraulic clutch line feeds to the clutch and I'm afraid the bolt or other piece of the plastic tab may have dropped down inside the bell-housing. I'm not too concerned about the plastic tab, but if the bolt fell inside the bell-housing it might play havoc with the clutch and I'd rather avoid the time and expense of removing the engine & transmission just to check to see if the bolt is in the bell-housing, so I'm looking for my USB camera I can connect to my phone.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BKL ().

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